Today we are talking with Jerome Horne about radically abundant transit. We also took deep detours into being vulnerable, what our kid selves would think of us today, and navigating advocacy as and with humans.
Links we mentioned:
- TransitCenter’s website and podcast, High Frequency
- Jerome on socials: Twitter and LinkedIn
- Jerome as t-shirt influencer: Fund Public Transit and Build Housing/Ban Cars/Be Queer
Come check out our episodes and transcripts at our website, annarboraf.com. Keep the conversation going with fellow Ann Arbor AFers on Twitter and Facebook. And hey, if you wanted to ko-fi us a few dollars to help us with hosting, we wouldn’t say no.
Transcript
NOTE: This version of the transcript was generated by an automated transcription tool and will contain (sometimes hilarious) errors. When we have time for human editing to clean this up we will update it, but we hope this imperfect version is better than nothing.
Jess (00:06):
Welcome to today’s episode of Ann Arbor F. I’m Jess Leeta here with co-host Molly Kleinman. We both use she her pronouns, Molly and I think a lot about how to make cities better through affordable and abundant housing, safer transportation outside of cars and community safety beyond law enforcement. We talk about these issues because we know that whatever we’re trying to accomplish, we can’t do it alone. So we’re right here with you learning how to get informed so we can get involved.
Molly (00:38):
Today we’re talking with Jerome Horn about transit and transit advocacy. Jerome leads transit centers strategies around increasing representative leadership and inclusive decision making in the transportation field. Change that is essential to transit center’s mission to improve transit in ways that make our city more just and sustainable. Jerome comes to transit Center with experience from Indigo and Foursquare, integrated Transportation Planning where he worked in roles concentrating on proactive community engagement and the rider experience of using transit at Indigo. Jerome’s highlights included starting the Transit Ambassador program, the Redline Bus Rapid Transit Project, which I’m very excited to talk about and revamping the system’s wayfinding recognized for his passion and dedication to the industry. He was recently named a Mass Transit magazine, 40 under 40 honoree in 2020, and an American Public Transportation Association emerging leader class of 2022 member. He lives in Flatbush, the Flatbush neighborhood of Brooklyn and enjoys taking walks through nearby Prospect Park. Jerome rides transit whenever possible, likes to bike and curates his extensive collection of transit memorabilia, memorabilia known as the International Micro Museum of Transit. Jerome uses he him pronouns, and we are so thrilled to have you here with us today. Thank you so much for joining us, Jerome.
Jerome (01:53):
Thank you so much, Molly and Jessica. I’m really looking forward to this conversation.
Jess (01:57):
Good. I hope you still feel that way after the first question because I want to ask you about tat. Okay. So first of all, I’m so excited for this. Help us understand what Nu Tat is and how you came to it, and then I’m going to talk a little bit about why I’m excited to that this is even a thing.
Jerome (02:17):
Yeah. So NAMTA is an acronym that stands for new urbanist Memes for Transit-oriented teens. And it is a Facebook group that was started actually by three early college students that went to the University of Chicago together, and they actually kind of started it as a joke and I joined the group I think when there may have been around 5,000 members or so, and now it’s blown up to over 250,000 members from all over the world and it’s not really made of teenagers, mostly 20 and 30 somethings. And then there’s still people as we go up the age range. But the biggest thing about Numad is it was exciting to watch it grow and explode as much as it did. It got some coverage actually in Chicago Magazine and New York Times, even a few foreign newspapers. And really it’s, I think it’s kind of representative of this cultural shift and trending of younger generations to kind of realize and enjoy that cities, urban areas, public transit, the ability to walk and bike and not need a car to get around is something that a lot of people are really interested in.
Jerome (03:31):
And so like I said, I joined the group in 2017 before it blew up, and then I would post a lot about my collection of trans and memorabilia and some of the other mods said, Hey, do you want to come on and be a moderator for us because you have a lot of really good content. And so moderating the group started out pretty exciting. I think it is fair to say, and even the moderators, the group is sort of past its prime at this point. It’s actually sort of grown too big to control in a way. But I think one of the great outcomes of Numad has been that there have been all these spinoff groups for local cities around the country, and we’ve just seen this sort of rise of the urbanists and people that are really interested in this field. And a lot of great things came out of the group with, we had college professors that taught urban planning that were involved in the group. And it really has sparked this interest. Many people have either become very curious or they are actually deciding to go to school in major and public policy in urban planning.
Jess (04:38):
One of the things that I appreciate about where the group started and where it went is it was so niche, it’s new urbanism, it’s transit and it’s memes. My graduate studies were in architecture, and since then I have done so much reading in urban planning and pretty much what you can count on in all of the, especially the formal texts, is zero jokes. It just doesn’t feel like you are allowed to approach these in a human accessible way. And for me, NATA was an eyeopener that, oh, we are allowed to be irreverent about this. And I saw a presentation that Juliet gave one time and she described the group, and I don’t know if this was a formal tagline or what, but she described the group as strategic shit posting what that’s so are we allowed to be in the 21st century and talk about this serious grownup stuff? Apparently we ares and I love that. I know what you mean about the group being a little bit bastards prime, but I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about the experience of moderating, especially a group that blows up like that, but a group that is intended to be shit posting, invites a particular kind of discourse. And I’m curious, I’m just whatever you want to say about your experience moderating that because it sounds challenging in all of the meanings of that word.
Jerome (06:05):
Yeah, I mean it was, moderating the group has been very exciting, challenging, eyeopening. I think one of the great things about being a moderator was seeing that as you said, there was a lot of discourse and sometimes there were posts that were more serious than others, and other times is these really great memes that I think really, really cost people to think and really highlight some of the challenges, but also benefits of good transit and as a result of naad. I would say the other thing is we saw people, even people in the profession begin to incorporate memes into some of their presentations at times at conferences. I did the same including
Jess (06:45):
Myself,
Jerome (06:48):
But it really makes a difference, right? Because this urban planning transit, it’s something that we all relate to. We all interact with transportation, but as you said, when you go to school formally for it, there’s not really a lot of human relatable texts. And I think that’s really one of the biggest things is how can we get a message across in a way that’s both kind of fun, exciting and thought provoking. And yeah, I really think that was really one of the main highlights of being in the group and moderat moderating the group. I will say in terms of the shit posting it, it’s like equally wonderful, but also we have to be really careful because the group was and is comprised of people from all around the world that come from different cultural norms, different backgrounds, different lived experiences. And so what may be funny to one group of people may not be funny to the other.
Jerome (07:44):
And so I think that was also one of the difficult things about moderating is how do we stitch together different cultures and different norms coming together. While we may agree in spirit, maybe how we approach it or how we talk about it, I is different. And so yeah, it was a great time and I’m really excited to have been part of the main rise of that group and the group’s still there and there’s still a lot of content that’s going in every day. But yeah, NATA has just been, I think it has given us more than any of us imagined it ever could.
Jess (08:21):
And I want to add on to that. First of all, the way that you describe it, how do we expand while remaining expansive? How do we joke while still bringing everybody along with the jokes? I mean, that’s community, right? And so as you’re talking about that numb top just sounds a little bit like a city, and with the exception of all the inside jokes, that feels like a city that I would want to live. Something that occurs to me is I describe architecture and urbanist texts typically, as you know, fair. I don’t want to say they’re dry, they’re not, they’re often rich, but that they don’t often invite humor. And I just want to name two exceptions to that because very few things come from nowhere. And if I were to say that aught were standing on the shoulders of anything, it would be Herbert Amp who is an architectural critic who wrote the most flamboyant shit about buildings.
Jess (09:08):
God bless that man, and Ada Louise Huxtable, a couple of her book titles that come to mind are goodbye history, hello Hamburger, and have you kicked a building lately? And she worked to create text that invited people into their own criticism of buildings and bring it down from this kind of ivory tower in the sky thing that academics and professionals do to something that anybody who can pick up a newspaper or have an opinion can have an opinion about a building. And I feel like NTA kind of draws on that legacy. All right, thanks for letting us get started with that. That group meant a very particular piece to me. It helped me come out of my, oh, I’m not allowed to joke about this shell. And so thanks for letting us explore that a little bit.
Jerome (09:54):
Absolutely.
Molly (09:56):
Yeah. So from moderating Shit posts, now you are doing AB engagement and advocacy at a national transit advocacy organization. And so I’d love it if you could just tell us a little bit more about Transit Center and what the organization does and what you do there.
Jerome (10:11):
Yeah, absolutely. So Transit Center is a foundation that works to improve transit in ways that make our cities more just and sustainable. And we really focus on national transit advocacy, policy research, and now leadership development. And we do that through a number of ways. We issue research reports, including one of our most recent reports about the US operator shortfall, which has been really well received and probably number one most important issue that transit agencies need to solve. We also host events and panel discussions with some of the thought leaders around the industry about different problems and challenges. And then we have a podcast called Frequencies that we also do that really highlights some of the things that are going on in the industry. And then finally with leadership development, that’s kind of my new area and really focused on how do we develop exceptional leaders and people because we know who leads and how they lead really makes a difference in transit.
Molly (11:14):
That all sounds super cool. So tell us, we’ve got this whole list of many questions for you about this, but I think a key one is why does transit need advocacy? I mean, obviously I kind of know this, but what’s the role of advocates in a space where transit has been this sort of public service that’s been around for a really, really long time, and I’m curious about the interaction and the role of advocacy there?
Jerome (11:48):
Yeah, I think simply Transit needs advocacy because it is one of the key solutions to battling some of the biggest crisis that we have right now being the climate crisis, our sort of social justice equity crisis and weaving a lot of things in between there that are connected housing and homelessness and transit, particularly in the United States, is definitely not funded at the levels that it should be. And therefore, in many communities we have transit services that’s a subpar and is not even meeting the needs of the existing writers today. Not to mention that we know in order to reach our climate and equity goals, we’re going to have to get more people walking, biking and taking transit, or it’s just not going to get to where we need to be. So transit advocacy as a community traditionally or thus far has been a small sort of more niche community. And so we’re really trying to grow that course of advocates and we’re trying to connect the dots with those who care about the environment with those who care about housing, those who care about social justice, because really all of these are connected and Transit really plays this key foundational role there to help solve a lot of some of challenges that we’re facing.
Jess (13:10):
For our listeners, I’d be curious if you think about in your own communities what role transit plays in helping as Jerome saying solve your problems In Ann Arbor, the thing that’s coming up for me is our A 20 carbon neutrality framework where we are committed as a community to reducing our vehicle miles traveled our V M T by 50% in the next seven years by 2030. And yes, I can do the math, I know it’s 2020, but only for five more, 2022, but only for five more minutes. So what I’m saying is that that 50% reduction of vehicle mile miles traveled, that is a significant behavior change on the part of most of us. And that relies on two things really. It depends on something that folks in these particular rivers call mode shift. So shifting from depending on your car to, depending on transit, depending on biking, depending on walking, depending on whatever motorized got that buzzes you around town that isn’t a car or living closer to the things that you do, whether it’s going to work, going to school, your kids, going to school, being able to run your errands, being able to do the fun things that you enjoy doing in your community.
Jess (14:25):
So mode shift and living closer are the two things that we’re depending on. And so transit is really key to our A two zero goals. And I’m just curious if listeners know for your communities, what does it look like? What does it accomplishing for you?
Molly (14:39):
And so I feel like that actually brings me right into the next questions I wanted to ask you, because before you were at transit Center looking at transit from a broader lens, you were at Indigo, which is the public transit authority for Indianapolis. And I’m so interested to learn from other Midwestern cities about how they’re meeting their transit and transportation needs, and they’re meeting these challenges that here in Ann Arbor, and I think more broadly in Michigan, we have been so stymied by some of these things, and I really like I would love to hear about some of the cool things that have been happening in Indianapolis, and especially, I know you were there during the launch of the first bus, rapid Transit first, right? It was the F It was first one right in the city. First
Jerome (15:21):
One, yes.
Molly (15:22):
Yeah, so tell us about that.
Jerome (15:25):
Yeah, so I was at Indigo for five years and I got to see what some might call careers were compressed into that time. So it’s probably one of the most exciting times to work at that agency. We passed one of the first very notable transit referendums in the Midwest and in a state that is traditionally known to be very tax adverse and in sort of a difficult climate where Indianapolis Capital, city of Indiana, but we have a kind of split political situation. But I think the great things about it was we were able to gain a lot of bipartisan support for trans and investment, which was really necessary because we actually had to change a state law in order to allow a ballot measure to happen. And so the ballot measure was just huge. And then after that, we built a new downtown transit center as well.
Jerome (16:23):
This really modern sort of world-class facility, as we like to say, it was giving dignity to our riders to have a comfortable air conditioned place, a place with restrooms to be able to use and wait for your bus. We upgraded our fair payment system and we launched the nation’s first battery, electric bus, rapid transit, which was a really exciting project to be involved because it was a great corridor. It serves as the central spine for the transit network in Indianapolis and really takes people to some of the key destinations, whether it’s the state’s largest hospital, the downtown central business district, some of our entertainment and arts districts in the city, and connecting universities and where people live. And so getting to see all those things. Not to mention, we also began planning for bus network redesign. So those were all wonderful experiences, and really for us, it was this way to highlight, Hey, transit is important.
Jerome (17:26):
And even in a city where the majority of everyone drives to get around, I think it really, really was significant. They were able to pass this transit referendum by 60% because that really showed that while there are people that may not ride transit themselves, they understand that there are people that depend on it. And also I think one of the big things that helped us is we had good support from our chamber of commerce, and we had different arguments for why we needed better transit. Some of it was an equity reason, some of it was economic development, connecting people to opportunity and just wanting to be a city that’s competitive with the other cities that Indianapolis wants to think it’s competitive with Minneapolis or Charlotte, some other cities that have been making significant investments in transit. So really, really an exciting time to be there.
Molly (18:20):
That sounds amazing. So for the transportation nerds among our listeners, what kind of B r t is it? So I recently learned maybe embarrassingly recently, that there’s a huge spectrum of what we call bus rapid transit, because I kept seeing people posting about how like, oh, B R T is bad, we don’t need B R T. And I was like, I thought I, we were excited about B R T, we’re desperate to get B R T in Ann Arbor. And then it was explained to me that it’s this continuum. So I’m curious where Indie’s B R T falls on that spectrum.
Jerome (18:53):
Yeah, absolutely. So bus rapid transit, as you said, it has an entire spectrum. There is something known as B R T creep as people like to say, and that’s kind of like the initial plan comes out, it’s very exciting, center running dedicated lanes, and then all of a sudden start, they start stripping away at the project of, oh, well maybe we don’t need this, and oh, maybe we don’t need level boarding platforms. And then you start to end up with something that’s subpar. And so I’m really excited to say that the B r T program that Indianapolis has and is actually built as even the second line is under construction as we speak right now, is really good, B r t. And one of the things that makes it really good is the majority of it is in center running dedicated lanes. And that’s really significant because you could have dedicated lanes kind of adjacent to the curb.
Jerome (19:48):
But one of the problems with those type of lanes is they are more susceptible to interference with regular car traffic and being delayed and having people park in them. And those center running lanes because they’re in the middle of the street, they’re less acceptable to that, and they just kind of allow bus rapid transit to have better reliability and consistency and frequency, which is really key. And so the B R T I think in Indianapolis is a great example of fitting in B R T into existing corridors and streets because one of the things that we’re really happy about is we didn’t have to widen the streets. We weren’t really trying to widen the right of way. We wanted to integrate this into the existing urban fabric. And I think one of the great things too is that because of the B R T streets are not only getting fully repaved, but we’re also fixing drainage, adding in sidewalks that were missing, adding an additional pedestrian crossings.
Jerome (20:45):
Because the big issues in India and many other cities is that because they’re not as walkable, they can be pretty dangerous for pedestrians. And so giving people more mid black cloth crossings and just more opportunities to safely get across the street and not be putting their lives in their hands just across the street was really huge. And another big benefit of the project, so the first line was 13 and a half miles had 28 stations that were spaced a half mile apart, and we were really strict about that stations facing, and we were the first fully battery electric b r t in the country. And I can say we did have some lessons learned. Our battery electric buses were not performing as well as we thought they would. And I think as the industry as a whole, once the transition to electric buses, obviously the technology is still needs room for improvement, but it’s evolving better every year. But one of the great things I can say about electric buses is that they’re very quiet and they’re very smooth, and that creates a better experience for riders, less noise pollution for those outside the bus and for those inside the bus, just a really quiet ride. So much so that I think sometimes, you know, would get on the bus and you’d almost be afraid to talk because you feel like everyone could hear you because that diesel engine wasn’t worrying in the background.
Jess (22:07):
Yeah, I love the idea of a bus hush, Molly, could you not just listen to this forever frequent midblock crossings and no, we’re not going to expand between the curb because we need space for who can we just do this forever? Please.
Molly (22:24):
This is incredible. So you mentioned that you had a lot of successes in Indiana and Indianapolis and getting more funding for transit. We recently here in Ann Arbor, well Washtenaw County I guess sort of greater, Ann Arbor passed a pretty ambitious millage for our transit system as well. And oh,
Jess (22:44):
Two things. So the transit, ambitious transit millage and within the city of Ann Arbor climate millage. So really working to fund especially our 2030 goals. So two of those were both in the August primary,
Molly (22:58):
So we’re going to be some money there. And one of the things that’s in the long range plan that we were sort of trying to fund is express buses and bus rapid transit, especially between Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti, which is our next nearest neighbor. And so I feel like you, you’ve now given me a little bit of a blueprint for as we start planning for these lines, if they start trying to take some things away, what to really focus and push back on. And I’m hearing system spacing, I’m hearing center running. I love the fact that the buses were electric. I know that’s been a priority for the city too, which is now causing issues with getting snowplows for our separated bike lanes because not only is there a supply chain issue with the cute little mini snowplows, but also it’s harder to get the electric ones. So think, I feel like this is a lot for us to be gearing up for as we look to do our own b r t
Jess (23:54):
As we’re working to implement the transit millage as we’re working, as we’re talking about our transit corridor zoning and working to implement that all over the city, which by the way, I just want to have a mini salty moment about the fact that we didn’t implement it citywide. We should have done, we said that on the pod, and we were right the first time. We should have just implemented it citywide and not said, let’s be careful and do this corridor by corridor because we said it’ll be a fight every time. And it has been, and it’s going to be. And that is a little bit frustrating. So speaking about fighting, I would like to transition a little bit. Molly referred to the transit millage and I brought up the climate millage and Molly and I this summer had an episode called Molly and Jess have a fight.
Jess (24:38):
And we essentially explored of the 99% convergence that we had philosophically around the climate millage, the 1% divergence that we had, which specifically had to do with funding mechanisms, and we called it Molly and Jess had a fight, but it was the most Midwestern femme thing that you can imagine. No punches were thrown, no elbows were thrown. It was fine. But these are conflicts, these are genuine conflicts. And you mentioned a little bit earlier whether you’re coming at this from an equity lens, from an economic sustainability lens, there are genuine frictions here. And something that I’m curious, as a southerner and adopted mid-westerner, how do you feel that your Midwest work and kind of Midwest Midwestern grounding is a superpower in conflict situations and in change work? And maybe how do you feel like it’s a handicap? Just how do you feel like that identity comes into conflict and interchange work? I’m just so curious about that.
Jerome (25:39):
Yeah, that’s an excellent question. I’m not sure anyone has ever asked me that before. What I can say is I really was appreciative and thankful for my time in the Midwest. And part of it is those cities, whether it’s Indianapolis, Columbus, Ohio, Louisville, Cincinnati, St. Louis, they’re all more prototypical of most of America, and that is cities that are largely car dominated and auto oriented. So I think one of the best things and the superpower from the Midwest was coming from understanding that we were in a place in a city where transit was not seen as a norm necessarily, or even a very important component of the city. And so there were a lot of fights, particularly when we talk about better transit and when we’re talking about dedicated bus lanes, that means taking space and power away from regular car traffic. And so there was a lot of education that was necessary, necessary, especially with our city council and the mayor’s office and just the general public of understanding, well, why do we need these dedicated lanes? What is it that, why is that important? And understanding that cars have really just dominated the planning of cities and they really just dominate the urban fabric in general where they, because so many of our cities have so much space dedicated to driving the car, to storing the car and these huge surface parking lots. So I
Jess (27:16):
Think a lot of that feels, if I could just interrupt for a second, a lot of that feels less intentional, like, oh, we’re doing this because it fulfills our strategic vision and we just do this because we do this. We have our curb conventions that we do because we’ve always done it and we mandate this much parking because we’ve always done it, and we just let cars have X amount of space because we’ve always done it that way. No, we haven’t. These are actually, we have many, many elders who are living right now who can tell you about their experience with cities beyond cars. And so I just kind of wanted to call that out, that yes, these are really, really prevalent conventions, but they are human made and we are the boss of things. So just wanted to say that.
Jerome (28:00):
Yeah, no, I think that was wonderful. And you’re absolutely right, it was very intentional to design cities around cars after cars came out. It’s starting really kind of in the 1920s. We’re almost at a century of the start of what we like to call motor damm or the auto industry and propaganda being developed such as jaywalking because
Jess (28:21):
What Molly calls car brain.
Jerome (28:23):
Yes. And so it’s almost like we’re fighting to go back to where we were. I always think it’s fascinating when you look at old pictures of cities and you see in the street there are kids playing, there are horse-drawn carriages, maybe even electric street cars and some of the later ones, people walking, people biking, maybe some of the early cars. And it’s just like all these things are sort of there working in some chaotic, chaotic, but also harmonious in some way. And it’s really interesting how we really made this very intentional decision to go, okay, wait. Nope, streets are only going to be for cars and everything else banned people. You need to go to the sidewalk. But it wasn’t always that way. And I think that’s the key that we’re really trying to show people is that, well, no, many of our cities actually started out very walkable and very transit oriented.
Jerome (29:12):
And so it’s almost like a fight to what is old is new again, in a way. I will say in Indianapolis, I think one of the interesting moments that we had is when we were building our first b r t line, about 90% of the corridor ran where there were street cards. And so we actually had to dig up and pull out of the ground the streetcar rails from the streetcar system from a hundred plus years ago. And the irony is that the last streetcar line that ran in Indianapolis ran on part of the northern corridor of our first B r t, and that’s where we had some of the biggest neighborhood obser opposition, and they were saying, oh, this B R T is going to come in here. It’s got to change the charact of our neighborhood. We don’t want this. That when the irony was that that neighborhood was formed because it was a streetcar suburb because the streetcar ran out there, it made that neighborhood form the way it did, and most of the b r t stops are one for one where there were previously streetcar stops. So we just thought it was very, so I’m sort of ironic as where kind of putting transit back where transit was. And so just the whole theme of this is this new, our cities were originally planned that way and we’re sort of realizing that the last a hundred years or so of autocentrism has been a mistake and done greater harm to our country.
Jess (30:38):
Yeah, there’s so many threads from that. I want to follow Molly, I’m looking at you to see what you’d like to pick up.
Molly (30:44):
I was going to sort of steal your next question because I think it’s actually it. I think you already started to answer it, Jerome, but we wanted to ask about the vision of change that you’re working towards. And I think you’ve sort of laid out for us that this vision, this vision is for a city, a new better version of the cities that we already had and the cities that we’ve already have. But I’m I to sort of add to that, I’d love if you could talk a bit more about the values that go into that vision and how those values shape the work that you’re doing now.
Jerome (31:19):
I think the vision is for radically transit and cities that are designed for and thought about with the humans first in mind. And some of the values that go into that I think are values that most people share, where we want safer streets, we want places for kids to be able to play. We want people from age eight to age 80 to be able to get around and move without the need for getting in a car and to have that safe and reliable guaranteed access to work and school and medical appointments. And this vision is really about transitioning the America from car required to car optional. You should not have to own a car to live a fruitful, meaningful, and successful life. And so I think the values that feed that are really just the values that are what we call the American dream. I think it’s time for an edit, if you will. It’s time to go well, yeah, if you want to live in the suburbs and you want a two-car garage, there’s nothing wrong with that. But also it doesn’t have to be that way. And owning a car doesn’t have to be, that doesn’t mean you’ve made it and that that’s a sign of success. So yeah, I think it’s about you or home.
Jess (32:49):
What was that, Jess or home owning a car or home? Oh,
Jerome (32:53):
Gotcha, Jess, absolutely. Right. Cause that’s another big thing, right? Is home ownership. And lots of people can film people my age in their mid thirties and younger kind of looking around going, I don’t know if I’m going to be able to buy a home. And that’s a really serious consideration. And I think housing is obviously one of our biggest issues in this country. While we have extremely high prices and extremely large numbers of homelessness. So yeah, I think the values that feed this vision of change are all about giving everyone the ability to access opportunity and the ability to have a successful life. Because the way we have designed our cities sort of prohibits people, particularly people that are sometimes black and brown, other marginalized populations. If you’re someone who may have a physical disability, if you’re someone who isn’t a straight white man, quite frankly, most of the built environment that we know today in our cities was designed by straight white men. And so we need to really think about, well, what did it look like to design a city that’s really taking into account different lived experiences?
Jess (34:05):
Did you know that, I don’t know if this is still true, but up until extremely recently, there are comfort windows that architects and engineers are given to spec within as they’re designing homes and offices and other buildings that people occupy. And up until very recently, and again, I’m not sure if this has changed, the temperature window was dictated by 155 pound white man, and I think the measurement was taken in the 1950s. And so I’m glad to know that we’re shifting our temperature, are all of our requirements based on ability, based on lived experience, based on all of that. I’m curious own, I love to hear radically abundant transit. I want to live in that phrase, this is where I live now, and I’m so curious what your kids self would think about the work that you do now and the conversations that you get to have.
Jerome (35:00):
Oh, wow. Well, I think my kids self would be really excited because when I was 10 years old, I sent my first email and that email was to the c e o of the transit system in Baltimore, where I’m originally from.
Jess (35:17):
Dude, I have goosebumps. That’s so cute.
Jerome (35:20):
And it asks him, Hey, how can I get your job when I grew up, so at age 10, I was thinking about being a transit ceo. And I don’t know any 10 year old that thinks that, and I wouldn’t recommend think about it, but he responded and it was this personal heartfelt response and is something like, Hey, Jerome, even at the age of 10 is not too early to begin thinking about a career in transit. Maybe you want to go to Morgan State University, which is a H B C U in Baltimore that actually is really well known for their urban planning program or go get a master’s degree in business. And it kind of ended with something like above all, hold onto this dream. And so as a little 10 year old kid, that was so exciting. It was a spark. And so I think given that I took a really roundabout way of getting into transit because some people know I went to school for actually music education.
Jerome (36:12):
Cause I decided to join band in middle school and high school and became a total band nerd before I was a total transit nerd. And I did this career switch. And it’s no surprise, I think all the adults that knew me when I was a kid, they are not surprised that I’m where I am today. And so I really think it’s a really cool story that I did take sort of a roundabout and circular path to getting into the industry because now that I’m working at Transit Center, one of our nation’s leading think tanks on transit and transit policy and advocacy, it’s exciting. So yeah, I think little kid me would be absolutely delighted.
Jess (36:51):
That’s so great. That is officially the cutest story we’ve ever had on fun. Yeah. Oh my gosh. All right. So I’d kind of like to follow up on that with something vulnerable that you said on Twitter recently. Is it okay if we talk about this?
Jerome (37:08):
Absolutely, yes.
Jess (37:09):
Okay. It was a public post, but I just wanted to double check. So what you posted was, lately I’ve been struggling with self-confidence. I’m not sure I have the competency to be where I am professionally, despite best intentions. I feel I’m not leading or making the positive impact. I’d like to make the world a better place. So first of all, hard, same. And so thank you for saying the words out loud. I, I don’t necessarily struggle with self-confidence, I just acknowledge that I never feel totally sure that I’m bringing enough to the work. And so to have somebody that I respect as much as you, that I think is as cool as you are, can be honest about that in a really public way. It mean it meant a lot to me personally. And so I wanted to thank you, and I’m not even sure where I wanted. What were you hoping for from that post? I guess I’ll start there.
Jerome (38:09):
Yeah. And I’m so glad we’re talking about this because I think it’s a really important thing to bring up. I think originally when I made that post, I was coming from more of a, I’d say human emotional side. And I think some of the best leaders that I’ve ever known or seen have been people that can be honest and they allow themselves to be vulnerable, to relate to people and show other people that they’re human just like everyone else. And so I think that was really part of my intention was to go, Hey, despite what you may see on social media or how I may come off, I’m human just like you. I don’t have it all together and I’m not even sure if I’m doing what I should be doing, so just understand that I’m struggling too. And I knew that I probably wasn’t the only person out there feeling the same way, but I understand the impact of the audience and the following that I’ve built.
Jerome (39:08):
And I thought it was really important to share that about myself and where I was and how I’m feeling. So I think that when you are involved in deep change work, especially when you’re fighting against systemic structures and barriers that have been set up in a way that they advantage certain groups of population and disadvantage others, there is a lot of emotional labor involved in doing this work. And particularly for me as I show up as a relatively young black male who’s also queer, there’s a lot of intersectionality in urban planning and transportation and how I think about and move about public space or what makes me feel safe or not safe. And I know that’s true for anyone that comes in sort of a marginalized identity. So while I have, I guess done well for my career, and it’s exciting to be where I am at this point, I think I’m also just at a point where I’m learning that, hey, there are things I don’t feel comfortable with.
Jerome (40:13):
There are some leadership skills, certain things that I need to work on and I get some more training on, and I just feel uncomfortable. But that’s okay. And as many people responded to that post, they kind of reminded me that, Hey, you know, grow the most when you feel uncomfortable and you are probably really taking the work seriously when you do step back and go, oh, I feel like I don’t know enough, or I’m not bringing enough here because of people that maybe feel like they have all the answers and that they’re doing everything right, those are the ones to watch out for. Those are the ones to watch out for. They’re probably arrogant and they’re probably the people that maybe we want to take off a grain of salt. And so I think the posts and the responses to the posts were really, really just great reminder for myself and everyone else that we’re all imperfect and we’re trying to figure out in a messy way. But if your heart and your passion and intention is in the right place, this is going to happen and in human. So I’m in a moment of growth and reflection right now, and I am at peace with that.
Molly (41:26):
That’s awesome. Thank you for sharing all of that. I feel like something we were talking about a little bit before we hit record was that I know about you from Twitter, I have followed you on Twitter for years. That’s that I learned a lot about bus Rapid Transit from watching your tweets about that first deployment in Indianapolis. And I feel like this conversation is just really such a great example of the kind of connection and learning that can happen in that space. And I feel like especially at this moment when Twitter is imploding, exploding, melting down, whatever the verb is for what’s happening there, that these kinds of conversations and connections are still possible, I think is really great. And I hope that we can continue to find ways to make these connections across cities and across experiences with whatever
Jess (42:25):
And across things we care about. Because I just learned something about Molly, you guys, it turns out that not everybody cares for all out of car stuff equally. For some reason, I conflated caring about bikes with caring about transit, with caring about transportation in general. And it turns out that’s not a real thing.
Molly (42:51):
Well, I mean, I care about transit a lot and I always, I grew up in an old suburb of an east coast city where I could walk to a train and take that train to center City Philadelphia, and from there I could get on a train to anywhere that I wanted to go. And so I’ve cared about transit for a long time, but I do not care what that train looks like. I do not care if it’s got overhead wires or under head wires or batteries or what the model is or what the seats are. All of that kind of detail that some transit advocates really appreciate. And I think it’s wonderful. I don’t know anything about any of it. I just want to get in a big rectangular conveyance with wheels that takes me where I’m going. And so that was the piece because I was like, we’re TA having a transit person on who has this amazing collection of transit stuff and I don’t know anything about any of it. And how is that conversation going to go? Which was one of my own moments of I fight for this and I care so much about it. But without that technical knowledge and that technical expertise that some people think is a prerequisite to caring about transit,
Jess (44:09):
It’s the conversation is about how are we using the right of way and not deciding what color the thing is that uses it or whatever.
Molly (44:17):
Right. Cool. Cause I had, I had a conversation with someone about light rail and they were saying that light rail is terrible. And I was like, you shouldn’t do light rail, you should do some other kind of rail. And I was like, is it ara? Is it on rails? I don’t
Jess (44:30):
Know. I
Jerome (44:34):
Just want to say, I want to highlight this. I think it’s really important. Yeah, because the spectrum of those who appreciate transit is large. And I like to say I skirt this really fine line between being someone who’s like a true transit nerd who knows about the different trains and buses and the propulsion systems and what the motors sound like. And that’s cool to me. But also I’m pragmatic. I have worked in the industry. It’s not just a hobby for me. I understand the human element and the human impact. And Molly, I really appreciate you lifting this up because I think sometimes there are people that get way too caught up in all this technical stuff and acronyms, and whether the train should be a light rail or a metro and b r t is not real transit. And it’s like, well, that conversation is most normal.
Jerome (45:29):
People do not care and they shouldn’t have to care. Or no, as you said, Molly, it should be I wait for the box, rectangular box of wheels, it comes frequently. I don’t have to check the schedule because it comes every 10 minutes or better every day, all day. And it’s consistently reliable and it’s clean and it’s safe, and it’s a way to connect around the city. And so I think it is really important that we not get too caught up on some of these conversations because if we want to see that mode shift happen around United States, it’s going to come in different forms because trains are expensive. They’re not going to go ever go everywhere. Buses have a lot of flexibility and freedom and things that we can do with buses that can really make a difference. And so I think what’s really important to focus on is the transit reliable? Is the transit consistent? Is it safe? Is it clean? Am I able to get to where I want to go in a reasonable amount of time? And whether it’s on rubber tires or rails that can come after that, but we need to make sure we don’t get lost in the conversation. Yeah,
Jess (46:38):
That’s exactly it. And just, I just keep swimming in the river of this conversation. You know, said something at the very beginning of that spoken paragraph, Jerome, which is that this is more about the human element than anything. And I got stuck there for a moment. In the most positive way, that’s what we’re talking about, right? We’re talking about transit, we’re talking about housing, we’re talking about unarmed responders, we’re talking about what it means to have meaningful local journalism in a time when most of us are in deserts. And a lot of what that comes down to is how we are human together and how we’re trying to be human together in communities that are physically and physically changing, but also evolving. We’re in the 21st century, A 21st century is different than a 20th century in ways that we are still trying to understand.
Jess (47:31):
Molly, I wonder if I can anticipate your next question a little bit. Is that okay? So we love to go out on the tagline of the pod, which is get informed and get involved. It’s your city. And what I’d love to do is ask you that question, but ask you to hone in on the human element that you just lifted up. So the rubber or rails thing I’m agnostic about, but can you help us understand how to be human together a little bit better as we are working towards better transit and transportation in our cities?
Jerome (48:07):
Yes. Well, I think one way in the context of transportation and really in the context of this particular episode, to be more human is one, as you said, one, we should, every decision that we make should be centered around the human first, and we should be thinking, and that’s why it’s really important to have a diverse coalition or group, people making these decisions that do present in different ways, different abilities, different race, different genders, orientations. But I think one great example, so I mentioned earlier that I’ve kind of been saying, take the United States from car required to car optional. And one micro thing we see in our community, which is kind of ironic. I’m wearing a shirt right now that says band cards and that I believe in the spirit of banding cars. Deep down in my soul, it’s what I want to see. But I also know that the reality is if I’m going to start having a conversation with somebody who happens to live in the suburbs, because that’s where they can afford to live, and that’s what they know. If I were to start that conversation with, you’re stupid, the suburbs are wasteful. We’re spending all this money subsidizing you and your car life burn down the suburbs, ban all cars. That is a wait. Are
Jess (49:21):
You listening to our conversations?
Jerome (49:25):
While that conversation may work in certain urbanist circles when we know we’re in company, the reality is that is a dead on arrival conversation with most Americans and even politicians and those who have power to a certain extent. So one way to be human is one to stop and go, well, that person’s a human too. And they may not have necessarily intentionally been, oh, I’m going to go live in the suburbs and I’m going to have two cars and I’m going to drive everywhere. Because one, that may be all they’ve ever been exposed to, all they ever know. And the reality is, most of the country, the built environment is set up in a way such that is the only real viable way for them to get around right now. And so I think to build this movement, we have to first acknowledge where people are and that a lot of people are just making the transportation choice that is practical for them at this moment.
Jerome (50:16):
And so we got to meet people where there are and then go, all right, how do we bring everyone in? Instead of calling people out, let’s call people in and try to have a real conversation about, well, have you ever stopped to about what it could be like to just walk to the convenience store to get a gallon of milk instead of getting in your car and needing a gallon of gas to go get a gallon of milk? And so that’s really my sort of long roundabout way of saying we have to approach this from a human values conversation and first acknowledge that we’re all coming from different lived experiences. And when we get there, then we begin to slowly have this more nuanced and detailed conversation about how we might retrofit suburbia, how we may think about our communities in a different way.
Jess (51:04):
All right. Well, y’all heard it from Jerome. We’re going from calling people out to bringing people in.
Jerome (51:10):
And I guess one other thing I’ll add to that is that this is my anecdotal experience, but I truly believe that most Americans drive because they have to, not because they want to. And we see this manifest itself actually quite a bit, even here in this country. A lot of people, they like to go on vacations to Europe or Asia or even South America at this point, and they’re always like, ah, I rode the train and they took the bus and I could walk the store and it was so great, and all this is really cool. And then here in this country, everyone, people love to go to theme parks, particularly Disney World. It’s like either they drove there or they flew in, but then they’re like, oh, but I took the monorail to the train, to the ferry, and I walked here at Main Street.
Jerome (51:52):
And so we see that example. But also when we look at many of our towns, small towns, even small cities across America, main Street is still there. And a lot of times at Main Street, people love going to that main street because they park the car. I spend a whole day and just walk up and down. And I don’t know if people have necessarily stopped and paused to think about, well, why do I like that? Yeah, well, it’s because you like being at a walkable place and Main Street is not dense and tall and full of skyscrapers. And I think that’s the other big thing that we also need to get people to understand that hey, if we say the word density, that could simply mean we’re going to build two homes on the lot size of one. That doesn’t mean we’re going to come and build a 50 story skyscraper next to you. So anyway, I just wanted to put that out there because I think it’s really important for Americans to understand that even our own towns and cities were sort of formed this way, and there is a reason why people like going to those places.
Jess (52:44):
Yeah, I just live in the town of Jerome, wherever that is. That’s great. Jerome, I’m so grateful for this conversation. I feel I know a little bit more about transit, but quite honestly, I grew a little bit more as a human, and I’m super grateful to you and to your 10 year old self. What a wise dude like, Ugh, good job. 10 year old you. Yes. So speaking of Wise Jerome, you have now influenced me into buying two shirts. You had a fun public transit one over the summer that I got a purple version and that I live in now. And now I see you wearing Build Homes, band cars, be queer, which is awesome. And so I’m going to go see if they have a purple one of those. So thanks for that. Speaking of things that we’re grateful for, let’s talk about the election for a second. Holy Crow, Michigan. Good job. Democrats in the Senate, good job. Reproductive rights everywhere. Good job, man. We just Amer America voted for the good stuff pretty much. I mean, a moment of silence for real, for Stacey Abrams.
Jerome (53:56):
Oh, yes.
Jess (53:59):
Especially as a Georgia girl, that one hurts. And I don’t want to minimize that loss. And the fact that we still have a runoff race in that state that we’re not going to know for another month and a half or so. But by and large, 2022 feels like we made a lot of good decisions as a country, as a state, and as a community.
Molly (54:17):
And don’t forget transit measures.
Jess (54:20):
Right. I was leaving space for you guys to talk about that a little bit. Okay. Cause I know a little bit less about that.
Molly (54:25):
Jerome, you take this one.
Jerome (54:27):
Yeah, I’m happy to start us out. Well, I just wanted to uplift Jessica. I mean, right. I think we went into the election not really knowing, and it seemed really close and uncomfortably close, and it still is, but I think it is significant that we know traditionally when it comes to midterm elections, the party in power doesn’t fare well. But that didn’t happen this time. And I think that is important to analyze it a little bit and think about why it happened. Of course, there are many other shows and political shows that di dive into that, but I just wanted to highlight that. And yeah, transit, the majority of transit measures that were on the ballot passed. I can’t remember the exact numbers, so I don’t want to misspeak. But this is actually a trend that we’ve seen happening for the last several years now, where transit ballot measures continually are being passed and approved.
Jerome (55:19):
And even in some cities where trans measures have repeatedly failed, and then they finally passed. Austin, Texas is a really big example. They tried several times and finally passed a big one back in 2020. But I think that says something about people that while people may not presently ride transit, it says that there’s a demand and an interest there, and that people think it is important enough that it needs better funding and more funding. And so we’re seeing a lot of communities around the country make that decision that, Hey, our transit is subpar. It’s not meeting the needs of those who rely on it. It’s not even meeting the needs of those who maybe want to rely on it but can’t because it’s just not good enough yet. So that’s a really good thing, and we hope to see more of that because one of the big issues with transit is funding in general, and even funding that comes from this, from states and rendering the funding that comes from the federal government because a lot of transit agencies are just bouncing from crisis to crisis, and they’re trying to put out fires constantly, and they have no time to stop and go back and think strategically.
Jerome (56:28):
So really, if we want better transit in this country, one of the things that we got to figure out is how do we fund it at a level where we’re not bouncing from crisis to crisis where transit agencies are well equipped and well equipped and able to be proactive and thinking about how we plan and expand service and making sure we’re serving the right people.
Jess (56:49):
You’re totally right, but you said crisis to crisis a couple of times. And now I have Hamilton in my head, I think it was the second at Cabinet Rap Battle. So thank you for that. And I also, again, want to celebrate the elections. And I also want to remind our listeners, the voting is not the last thing you do is the first thing you do. So if you voted for transit, if you voted for climate measures, if you voted for reproductive rights, if you voted for somebody in office that you wanted to be there, let’s get started. And if you’re already in the work, let’s keep going, but find the next thing to do. If there’s a strategic plan in place, how can you support it in your community If there isn’t, how can you be a part of those community conversations? What is the next step in the change that you want to take? Make sure that you’re in that conversation and make sure, as Jerome said, that you’re bringing people along.
Molly (57:49):
And that’s it for this episode of Ann Arbor. So many thanks to Jerome Horn for joining us today. This is a really fantastic conversation. You can come check out past episodes and transcripts at our website, ann arbor af.com. Keep the conversation going with fellow Ann Arbor AERs on Twitter at the a2 Council hashtag, and on Facebook in the Ann Arbor Housing for All Facebook group. And hey, if you want to send us a few dollars at ko-fi.com/ann Arbor AIA to keep to help us with hosting, we always appreciate it. We’re your co-host, Molly Kleinman and Jess Lita. And thanks to our producer, Scott Trudeau. Theme music is, I don’t know, by Grapes. Get Informed and get involved. It’s your city.