Transcript
MH:
Recently, our community’s been having conversations about sex work and sex workers inspired by a prosecutor ellie service announcement that he will not be prosecuting people for consensual sex work. We wanted to continue that conversation, and to that end, we have invited AF from a network of sex workers to excite revolution, also known as answer will be asking this ace of cakes about the power collective and what people should know about sex work and how you the people of Ann arbor can follow along and get more involved so let’s jump in and we finish Hello.
AF: Hello i’m so excited to be here, thank you for having me!
JL: Yes, so much for joining us.
MH: So yeah answer tell us about answer who you are what it is you do, and maybe a little primer on what sex work is and who sex workers are for people who don’t know.
AF: Okay well i’ll start with who and what sex workers are because that’s like conditionally important to us, who and what answer is in sex work is there’s a very great philosophical answer that i’m not going to have but it exists it’s um sexualized Labor and it’s physical Labor and it’s emotional Labor kind of all rolled up into one and so it sits at a lot of interesting intersections of Labor and work and it’s foundational Lee any work that you’re doing that relies on your sexuality so stripping can work porn full service sex work, you know these are all under the umbrella of sex work and there are definitely arguments to kind of expand beyond that to say like hooters servers. I don’t know. That would be contentious lc lc you know, there are definitely be debate about that and generally they wouldn’t get folded in and usually they wouldn’t want to identify as sex workers. But generally and, like the reason that they wouldn’t identify and why they generally wouldn’t be formally accepted under the sex work umbrella is that sex work carries with it a degree of criminalization and a degree of social stigma that that you know service jobs, even though bartending and waitressing are very sexualized don’t carry. So it’s yes these jobs that are explicitly sexual in nature, like can’t work or full service sex work escorting you know those things, and so answer. Answer Detroit is a power collective form in Detroit. The the long form version of answer is a network of sex workers to excite revolution and we formed in I want to say not, I want to say we formed in spring of 2019 I was brought on shortly before that a couple friends who had backgrounds and activism look at the the vacuum of sex work organizing in Detroit for reasons that are really beyond the purview of this podcast there swap Michigan had kind of disbanded and Michigan for an.
MH: office sex worker outreach project.
AF: Yes, thank you like.
MH: My have an international organization of sex worker advocates right.
AF: yeah yeah my father was a minister, and so I have like very exclusive jargon that i’m used to, so thank you for calling me out on that um.
MH: I just tried to let people know what all the acronyms are.
AF: So yeah the sex worker outreach project had kind of gotten defunct in Michigan and there was this this vacuum of collective organizing and so a couple activist friends kind of came to me and we’re like we’re thinking of doing this and i’m like that sounds great I want in. The end so in yeah the spring of 2019 answer formed formally to fill that space. And we started with you know more, more social events in 2019 we had some dance parties vigils film viewings we had a support group which we still have its ongoing every week and the like, and during that time we built out our more political arm. And in 2020 We obviously kind of had to pivot away from that this goal sort of outreach and community and building that was really reliant on Community space sharing, though, in December, we did really get to the partner with sex quizzes out of London there. I think a sex work specific events organization and we partnered with them for an international and online vigil for December 7, which is an international data and violence against sex workers and every year there’s a vigil of those that we have lost, and that was really special we had we had people from the US and from the UK, obviously, but I think we had someone from Barcelona and a few other countries which is, which is really awesome and then, but our biggest our biggest accomplishment last year. As far as i’m concerned, and I think, as far as the rest of the answer Members would be concerned we had this mutual aid fund, which put somewhere north of $30,000 directly into the pockets of over 100 sex workers were mostly black mostly trans and mostly straight working. Those most disadvantaged and most impacted by the coronavirus pandemic.
JL: yeah and also less likely to access resources right.
AF: yeah absolutely and, like most likely to be overlooked by my standard resource very.
MH: Well, and in some in some of that stuff I in some of the stuff I heard about that they were saying that sex workers were specifically excluded from the from the stimulus packages and so forth, that that everyone else got and that’s even people who were involved in, you know the completely legal sex trades that.
AF: yeah yeah the cures act, there was a beautiful provision in there and I don’t want to talk out of pocket about who it was I don’t remember for sure. The specific Senator that I.
MH: Was Congress.
AF: But um but yes all sex work was explicitly prohibited from accessing the the unemployment money from the Caribbean and and yeah that that included porn stars, who, by the way their job is legal and access right. And other people who do legal tech strippers are their work as they all and they pay taxes, but they were excluded from accessing funds. So, so we did this mutual aid fund and it, you know, for an organization that had really just kind of gotten his feet under it to put $30,000 into the pockets of local sex workers, I felt in i’m immensely proud of now and then.
That was that kind of wrapped up or 2020 that individual and in 2021 kind of with a bigger platform thanks to that fundraising. And with more organizational capacity as we brought people into the organization, partly through that fundraising and just from being around more. We were building off that password and focusing more on our political activism, and we talk with ellie summit. A couple months ago in Washington and just a couple weeks ago we also talked to the Detroit memorial came to Anthony Adams and we’re looking forward to more political talks and and flexing those muscles.
JL: Which kind of leads into my next question when it comes to answer I love the title exciting revolution what’s the revolution that you’re hoping to excite is this legal is this hearts and minds what, what are we doing what, what are we fixing.
AF: that’s an excellent question um.
JL: You know.
AF: We know I don’t think we have a specific organizational answer for that. You know, I think that like any leftist organization, if you have one answer you have 8 million answers you have a different right, and if you have one set answer you’re just going to splinter. So so i’ll give you my my My thesis on that, rather than answers organizational answer and that’s a revolution in the well being of sex workers, and that is inherently a revolution in how society views sex workers and how society treats sex workers and that ties into and that’s beyond sex work that’s that’s our sexual health policies that’s our sexual education policies that’s our current policies that’s our you know border crossing policies slash immigration policies slash traffic like whatever you want to turn that. People from other countries those things all tie in to sex worker rights and I love a revolution that really, really addressed all of those things and made it just easier for people to exist and have agency to do what is right for them.
MH: One of the things that I was thinking about is that, like I think it’s amazing that you’re doing all this like it’s it’s hard enough to do Labor organizing but like when you’re doing Labor organizing and an industry that people don’t even recognize as Labor like that seems like it’s a lot harder like one of their like rallying cries of sex workers is to say that sex work is work, you know you have to get people to there.
AF: Right it’s like it’s almost as disheartening is like black lives matter like, of course like why right. Sex work is work like what, why is this an argument may have to have. And like i’ve read a few books on specifically sex work Labor organizing and from from a couple different perspectives and they’re almost Comically difficult just just the way that there’s so much Institutional opposition there’s patriarchal opposition there’s money opposition you capitalist opposition and just like all the fruits of generation against Labor organizing to begin with right, I still think it’s like kind of amazing that like sag aftra is a thing.
MH: The screen actors Guild and brain right.
AF: That like this, this group of people without one singular boss, and with all these disparate workplaces can come together and have a union and like yeah that’s because that’s kind of the same thing that sex work has to deal with, but also there’s all these other complicating factors with sex work that that make it substantially harder and there, there have been successful like sex work Labor unions. Depending how you define success right they’ve had success for a time. And, but yeah it’s difficult is an understatement for sure. Right.
MH: But you’re managing to do some good things it sounds like. So I guess like what is it that you know we’re organizing for like what what is it that keeps that that we need to do to keep sex workers safe. You know what dangers I sex work it’s facing like what like you know what what do we need to organize about like what’s the you know.
JL: what’s the problem we’re solving. yeah. I mean for real.
AF: Time earnestly right i’m sex work is really appealing, I think, I think. I don’t think this is going to be longer say that sex work is more appealing, the more marginalized you are often um and so sex work has to fight. You know the marginalization of women, so we have to. We have to fight racism, we have to fight SIS sexism, we have to fight cetera et cetera sexism right, like all of these things we have to fight where it’s just like 8 million it’s too many fights like can we come back, please um and by put them back, I mean like put them in the trash and like.
MH: Right.
AF: He said rate it. Please, I don’t want to fight all those fights but here we are, we have them and they’re at our doorstep um so there are what we’re organizing for and what we’re organizing against i’m sorry, if you like, your question that maybe have like two different points to it and I just want to make sure I get them right, could you just repeat for me.
MH: Oh, I don’t know remember what I said but.
JL: It goes along the lines of what dangerous to sex workers face and how do we keep them safe.
AF: Okay. I can go, thank you, those were the two points, and I want to, I just want to make sure I answer your question, so I can talk forever and not question.
JL: I don’t know I actually want to push back against that a little bit here, and also in the lead up to recording this episode. I very much appreciate that you resist simplification and you politely but firmly, do not allow misstatement so the fact that you are looking I see this as a single question and you see it as at least two points I appreciate that i’m learning a lot, so thank you.
AF: yeah I am I went on that point i’ll get to your your question. I went to an RD. It was a friend’s divorce party, I think, I think, is what it was, it was like part orgy part not there was very free love, I guess, if we were in the 70s but there was there was this point this lovely point where they’re like 12 or 15 of us in a room and we one person will sit in a chair and everyone would complement them and then you know they’d switch out and this woman, I know said that. It was either her or this person I won’t say today, I actually forget who it was but they’re like you’re an incredibly precise with your language and i’m like Oh, I always thought that was a bad thing, thank you. i’m always like self insult as a pedantic appreciate that you like that JESSICA.
JL: precision is a form of kindness so.
AF: So, so the um.
MH: What did you see his face, how do we keep.
AF: Yes, I was dangerous sex workers face I was trying to find a way to like not give you a 12 hour rant on this and because there’s all all the sex workers sit at this giant intersection of marginalization, you know every city has like you know usually streets caught cross and there’s like the four points and, like everyone small city has like five points, but other than that it’s like sex work is like the seven point road and there’s 50 traffic lights and as a fucking mess and so we face a lot of violence and harms from the police state in America policing of sex work is generally. Just never good right right policing is usually bad for everyone except for the extremely privileged who policing as a protection and sex workers are never, never those people. As often violent and it’s often course of and it’s often dangerous in many places. The police officer investing can and is often encouraged and sometimes has to have sex with a sex worker in order to arrest them. Which is like incredibly hideous and gross right. That it’s like a cop comes in. You think it’s a client you Fuck up or whatever you know I don’t like all my clients and then they take their money back and put you in cuffs right like it’s tragic and dangerous and and incredibly at that so that’s that’s a danger we faced danger. Less danger from clients than people think I think people generally think that clients are.Really CD and really dangerous and like they’re not in my experience i’ve had a really, really lovely clients who I hope will be like lifelong friends, but there are bad people out there who want to take advantage of sex workers right there’s the green river killer. there’s many murders of sex workers from people who just think that people don’t care about sex workers.
MH: That goes back to jack the Ripper.
AF: Right right um and and they’re not wrong in a lot of ways. You know, sex workers face a lot of trouble with homelessness, which is a mix of like already being marginalized within their families, you know queer youth often turned to sex work, because it is a survival mechanism that they can can use they can access but also sex workers also get kicked out for being sex workers, even if they’re not already facing that housing insecurity and and landlords often won’t rent a sex workers if they know that they’re doing sex work because it’s a liability for them right. And it’s also I guess hard to get a lease when you’re self employed just generally speaking right.
MH: Well, and I think I like the you know, part of a sorry to interrupt I got mad about the landlord thing because it’s like we have a lot of laws that you know, like make it feel define like someone who who rents to sex workers as like a brothel you know, and so, then it puts you know, so it puts the pressure on the landlords to like police police the sex workers out of them, you know.
AF: right before.
MH: wants to kick people out, you know.
JL: It does kind of but it doesn’t even go that far, I was talking to a friend who works for housing Commission and she and the staff work hard to be as, how do we want to say as accepting of client their tenants and their work as possible, but the security force that they hire to police the properties kind of enforce their own policies, and one of the things that they do is chase off clients if that’s what they think they are like they don’t even have to have a reason or probable cause or anything like that because again they’re not police it’s this private force so there could be reasonable laws on the books, there could be reasonable people reasonable landlords and even still there’s a part of the system that enables this danger.
AF: yeah it’s their horror phobia the specific like way in which society paid sex workers is if it were a good thing, it would be genius Lee and cunningly pervasive but it’s an awful thing so like mad genius evil I don’t know but it’s it’s really pervasive and it’s through everything like like you said, even the cares active, you know, to get money to people who are literally starving rating I don’t remember the numbers but food insecurity when skyrocketed over the pandemic, of course, it did no one surprised that it did well, but the number was awful and to explicitly block sex workers from getting unemployment, during that time is criminally evil of course not it’s never going to be charged. Okay, but in if I ever got to write a lot that would be like first one, you have to give 10 direct money to sex workers. But yeah and there’s there’s all these ways in which sex workers face violence and dangerous and we – I don’t want to paint sex workers broadly as a class as drug users but, like any group of people sex workers use drugs and like and drug use, often there’s a certain linkage between drug use and poverty right as escapism.
And these things link in intertwined and so sex workers who are facing already facing state violence over survey state surveillance, you know, are also now being hassled for loitering and also being hassled for indecent exposure or being hassled for being homeless and you know public urination and being hassled for drug use and there’s all these ways in which sex work is dangerous it’s dangerous for families it’s dangerous sex workers can lose their children really easily it’s a really common unfortunately reason against visitation for a partner that you are no longer on friendly terms with you know, all these I feel like I could go on for you know the rest of my life, about the dangerous place and really I i’d love to, but I also feel like we have a lot of other things, to get up. Get on.
MH: You know, so I wanted to mention the thing you talked about that you know what these loitering laws and stuff like that I wanted to specifically point out that Ann arbor has sex work listed in its list of things that constitute disorderly conduct in our ordinances and so, even if we have a prosecutor who is not gonna prosecute people just having it listed in our disorderly conduct ordinances gives the police license to hassle people.
AF: yeah yeah and we’re going to talk more about that right, because I have a whole like i’d love to get it.
MH: let’s do it now let’s do it now.
AF: yeah yeah so like there’s answer had a meeting with that Lee with at least have it. As Laura and Victoria versus Burton Harris who is.
MH: Chief assistant prosecuting.
AF: Thanks, I was thinking wt i’m like no that’s not right chief assistant chief assistant here and we had actually had conversations with Victoria Burton Harris in the fall when she was running for Wayne county prosecutor against kym worthy. And we ended up backing her. We really enjoyed our conversations with her and her stances, so we were. I can say we were organizationally pleased that Sabbath brought her on so anyway, we had a sit down with Sabbath and Burton Harris about their policy and. you we we were really happy for this policy directive, I thought, when I say on January 14 they pass a policy directive. To to not criminalize sex work, so they weren’t they weren’t going to press charges and which is lovely but if I go to sex work anywhere in Washington county any of those cities on their contractors on on their town laws they can have over there city books, whatever they can have their own laws against sex work. So I can still be hassled I can still be arrested and still be charged, I just want to be, you know. If it goes to the Washington county prosecutor, then he won’t do anything but definitely an arbor I can I can suffer consequences and there’s all these other you know there’s you know the walking while trans that’s that’s the thing i’m and that’s all.
MH: That was a lie in New York, where at least that yeah and can you talk about the walking while trance thing a little bit.
AF: um so like i’m really just most intimately i’m not super intimately familiar with New York swapping will transact but my understanding is that parallels, generally speaking, what happens elsewhere, like, I had a partner who was not in sex work at the time as far as i’m aware. Who was trans is still trans I assume you no longer talk and they were they were both like a lot, and they were biking back to where we were staying at the time in ferndale and they were had we’re coming up with word and there’s historically, been a big trans straight work stroll and in Palmer park on Woodward near near seven mile and when she got stopped at the border, it was like what what it’s midnight, what are you doing as a trans person she’s like i’m i’m riding my bike like and so that’s anecdotally what the walking their old trans man is Or why is.
MH: kind of the idea that if you’re out there and you’re trans you’re automatically suspected of being a sex worker and therefore some of these like laws against being a sex worker will be triggered and you’ll be hassled for it by the police right.
AF: yeah yeah and, at the very minimum you’ll be hassled right and she didn’t get charged with anything because there was nothing to charge her with again as far as I know I don’t think she was working at the time we had conversations later and she was like a miss doing sex work so I don’t I don’t think it was a thing that she was doing at the time but yeah just existing as a trans one kind of in at night near near the stroll was was reason to harass her and pulled her over, and you know take up a bunch of her time and, and you know make her heart race and that’s that’s bullshit so.
MH: It was all done a lot worse.
AF: Right right and that’s 18 other stories i’m right which. And you know there’s all these adjacent quality of life crimes that are problematic in in addition to to sex work, you know drug use loitering other poverty laws indecent exposure public intoxication all of these things are still can still give police reason to harass a sex worker, even if sex workers decriminalized in addition to you know sex work criminalization on a city level.
MH: So i’m yeah I guess I wanted it okay i’m looking through my list of like questions that I scribbled ahead of time I guess like I wanted to also talk about a little bit I guess like a lot of the it seems like there are laws that people right where they think they’re helping sex workers and I hear a lot about like you know I see people on the Internet that they’ll always post like news clippings from women say Oh, we went in. This police department did this brave raid where they saved a bunch of people who were being trafficked, and then you read the article and it’s always yeah we rested we arrested like 3030 prostitutes that’s what it says in the article and it’s like so you arrested, the sex workers and that’s how you think you saved them like what and people keep on reading this last is faster they assess the there is there they’re working on they’re working on some new ones and It just seems like a lot of these things it always they always right they always come up with these ideas with the idea that they’re going to be helping people and it’s always it’s always we’re going to make sex workers lives harder. Can you talk about that.
JL: Well, and I want to note, this is a podcast and we’re zooming so we get to see each other’s faces the grief on at his face when he brought that up that was heartbreaking right.
AF: um it’s like it’s grief mixed with maniacal laughter because it’s so much in and yeah it’s there are a lot of organizations that have a lot of money, who don’t want to see a sex workers do well, and this can broadly broadly be called the anti trafficking movement which is less about stopping trafficking and more about stopping sex work a lot of these organizations have roots and very conservative Christian movements, one I forget which one it actually was originally explicitly for banning all pornography like that was their organizational purpose was to ban pornography and they’ve moved into this anti trafficking and they’re incredibly well funded and incredibly well organizing and incredibly dangerous and incredibly Turkey they’re expensive trans exclusive with a radical feminist.
MH: Well, as people yeah people, people say turf now when they’re not even talking about people who are who even pretend to be feminists they say.
AF: just talking about transfer well and I would think so like there’s term which is trans exclusionary radical feminism and there’s work which is sex work exclusion your radical feminism and i’d argue very strongly that neither one is feminists and the fucking slightest like they’re kind of misnomer terms but they’re they’re the terms that we use and they’ve kind of moved beyond the original meaning, which was like very couched in like spaces that were anchored in feminists thought and I don’t think modern day turfs are, I think that is a misnomer but it’s it’s colloquially used and so so i’m going to run with it um but yeah these organizations, in addition to being anti sex worker also generally anti trans so like you know that’s gonna be fun to play if they hear this podcast i’m someone’s going to kill me I don’t play.
MH: I mean, I hope, I hope, like I hope you’re joking about that because, like that’s actually a danger, you might face.
AF: been harassed online and it’s the whole thing, but any that they’re well organized and well funded, it is because they’re organizing their fundraising goal is to save girls to save little weight on girls. From global trafficking, which is noble but also like that’s not generally who’s traffic right and that’s also not actually what their legislation and their arguments push for it’s really deceptive and really dangerous and real myself back in and give me a second to collect reroute my train of thought here. Because I could just go on about that them forever.
MH: i’m glad you thought is in a train and not a car.
AF: With only one person sort of five. But yeah we’re using less fuel I wish it was about at least right and so what they’ve helped push for these bills that are now laws in a lot of places foster, which is i’m just going to Google what fossils of stars drop where I.
MH: pulled I pulled it up here it is okay successor, is the STOP enabling sex trafficking act and then foster is the allow States and victims to fight online sex trafficking act.
AF: Thank you and
MH: Also US federal laws.
AF: Their bills actually they were built now while they’re not the pastor law right sister was in the Senate people start with so easy to remember fossa was in the House, and they got rolled into one one thing for the President to sign off on and they passed it. The bill in the House past, I think, in February of 2018 and in the Senate and it was just the three year anniversary, a few days ago, I think, on the 21st and then they were signed into law by Donald trump in April of that year and speaking of Donald trump. Donald trump explicitly drew from the anti trafficking playbook. In arguing for his border wall right and a lot of these anti trafficking movements they’ll argue that they’re doing something feminist but, at the end of the day, they’re stripping agency and resources from women. Right you don’t help women by criminalizing you help them by giving them aid and a lot of these organizations have oodles of money, I remember, I saw one woman really tell on herself, she was the head of an organization and she’s like we’ve raised $40 million, and someone was like what what have you done well. You know, we raised awareness that free one person from prison and i’m like you. You ran a newsletter campaign for one one single person like you, maybe didn’t even actually have anything to do with spraying them.
JL: wow.
AF: in mind you, like you know answer we have some overhead but I would feel very comfortable saying that least 95% of our fundraising goes directly into the pockets of sex workers in through our mutual aid fund right like it’s just like there’s ways to help people and that’s by giving them help right it’s not by criminalizing them and giving them a record and that’s, just like the least feminists thing I can think of and so, a lot of these organizations are incredibly well funded do really dangerous things and often pair with you know parties and raping idea once one person I know we’re going to talk about some more, but on the top save that campaign SAP starts at it on the stops habit campaign.
MH: Again yeah that’s The thing that we’ve seen there’s some people doing tweeting on that hashtag have stopped Sabbath.
AF: yeah yeah and i’m just going to touch on super quickly we can totally dive into them, but like one of the people that I just like cruise through the hashtag and see who is tweeting about it, like one person is like a fox news commentator right and i’m like great, of course, like anti trafficking bergdorf and so, these anti trafficking things you know they’ve Donald trump pulled from their playbook they align themselves with fox news they’re usually very anti queer and entice in addition to being anti sex work in and a woman, in my opinion and they pushed for they helped push the push for false assessed and other legislation and policy assessed a built in some restrictions to not to get too wonky but section 230 of inner Internet right spelling I can’t remember what it is off the top my head, you may remember it recently Donald trump was tweeting about it because he was mad at Twitter for censoring him or something around. Maybe not obeying Conservatives are so I don’t really remember, but he was going on and on about it, do you remember what that was Michelle.
MH: I don’t remember what Donald trump was on about, but I definitely yes section 230 is the thing that kind of protects. The operators of websites from liability for the things that the users post so it’s like if you know. If, like Facebook had to be personally responsible for everything that someone posted they wouldn’t run Facebook, because anyone could Sue them saying like.
Someone did a jerk thing on Facebook and it’s facebook’s fault and so Facebook would be liable for the generic thing, and so, in most section 230 kind of freeze websites from that responsibility for the most part, it says if you’re like just if you’re just hosting people’s content you’re not personally liable for it.
AF: But Ray Ray it dropped off.
MH: Sorry yeah but then fast assessed says Oh, but actually you are personally responsible for it, if it’s a sex work thing.
AF: Right and and i’m section 230 draws a distinct line between publisher and publisher and I don’t even remember what the other category is, but what what social media falls under. So and that’s a big reason that Facebook has like generally been like we’re not a news organization, because they really want those section 230 protections and now that section 230 is kind of crumbling that’s the part of the reason that you see Facebook getting kind of more into news news rain as like and we’ve seen the recent Australian and New Zealand legislation against Facebook and Google requiring that they paid news outlets and they’re kind of looking into being their own news outlets for that reason and part of that is kind of on the backs of like they’re like well if we’re not protected by section 230 then like what’s to stop us from being a news outlet just out now. So false and sesa kind of strip that away and that was really dangerous for sex workers it meant that a lot of web services that we used no longer willing to host us.
MH: And those were things you’re using to like find safe clients and like.
AF: connect right.
JL: There and talk with each other.
AF: yeah yeah so it was you know some websites we use for screening to like make sure that our clients were safe or not some things that we use for Community organization. Some places that we used just to advertise our services, you know I mean it’d be like really shitty if someone was like oh you can’t monster.com is illegal now or whatever nor me job seeking board is I don’t know.
MH: What the linkedin.
AF: Link yeah I don’t know but yeah like if linkedin was some suddenly criminalized right and like this ties in you know just the sex workers work argument we just want fuckin Labor rights we want freedom to do our job as a job, just like any other job has you know, we want to be able to advertise our services, you want to be able to do our jobs for free of Asian. And so that that’s what possums tested and a lot of sex work sites came down in the immediate aftermath of that and, since then, and I should say, those bills, have brought incredibly broad bipartisan support the thing here here in Michigan debbie stabenow supported a siesta she. My understanding since ever since i’ve been paying attention is she fucking hate sex workers one of her ex husbands was caught up in a staying with a sex worker and she shortly thereafter divorced him.
And it just seems like ever since she’s really hated sex workers and maybe that was longer standing than before, has been doing that, but yeah so stabbing i’ve supported that and since then and, mind you, the Department of Justice opposed these things, and the electronic frontier foundation of host these things which is a digital.
MH: Rights advocacy.
AF: platform or group and generally they they curtail online free speech for for queer communities and for King communities, because those are seen as inherently sexualized communities right and shortly after that, if anyone’s familiar with fat life, which is kind of an online social network is kind of the Facebook of King people and, like it has its own problems, and like if it’s 10 tomorrow, maybe that would be a good thing but it’s it’s used by non sex workers to find other King partners and they talked about shutting down and the aftermath of processed and you know after that craigslist close down their their personals right so that because craigslist had already closed down their their sex work ads. But they still had personal is for you know and for him or WW or Emperor and for for him for him or whatever orgy for orgy but they close this down and post office, so that people couldn’t advertise on them, and since then we’ve had Cecilia come up.
MH: which I knew bill hasn’t been passed, yet.
AF: yeah which I don’t even remember what that stands for, I don’t know if you’ve already pulled that up Michelle.
MH: i’m working on it right now.
AF: and we also have the end banking for human traffickers act which is basically just taking bank access away from sex workers, which we know bank access is incredibly important in this country, you need banks for a lot of things it’s it’s hard there’s a lot of things it’s hard to do without a bank and again that had brought bipartisan support from 11 Omar to Dan crenshaw they both co sponsored that bill right like one of the more left figures in the House, and one of the more right figures in the House and ancestor past 97 to two and foster past 388 to 25 these are broadly bipartisan.
MH: say I which hasn’t been tested yet is called the STOP Internet sexual exploitation act.
AF: Right and I don’t even think I know other members of answer have been in a lot of talks about CES yeah and i’m i’ve kind of stepped back from that because other people have been handling that really well.
MH: And that’s all right, because we’re running out of time here.
AF: So there’s like a further problem of Section 230. But yeah and after fossa sista there’s a international sex work conference deseret alliance they shut down all these things shut down post boss assessed and sorry for the 80 minute answer.
JL: No it’s helpful to understand and back to your comment about debbie stabbing out one of the things that i’d like for us to understand for our listeners to understand is. What can we advocate for locally or at the state level like what are we asking for or saying what are we telling and who are we telling.
AF: yeah so so that’s great um I think ultimately, local is where it’s at personally it’s where individuals have power and you know I alluded to this with a stops have a campaign, but I don’t really have respect for outside agitators talking over the people being affected. The stops at campaign is you know looking through that hashtag it was like Sweden and Germany and New York and DC and like, no, no one from Washington county. But it’s all synergistic and we can start with Sabbath and the harbor Council and we can also talk to our representatives, both at the State level and nationally. Sex work decriminalization I think has to start locally, but at the end of the day, it’s only going to come from some places from a top down federal initiative and for that we have to push our representatives in the House and the Senate both state and nationally. That broad support of foster ancestor instance ya gotta yada yada. That that has damages and so um. You know I there’s room to press our representatives, further to the side of justice an agency for the most marginalized women among us, and so I think that’s who we need to talk to in kind of a broad census there’s all these social things that we can do we can talk to family, we can talk to yada yada but, at the end of the day, there’s the people making the laws are going to be people that we need help from right and incredibly locally um you know in Washington county in in our cities I think you know our prosecutors our mayor’s our Council members, first and foremost need to listen to their constituents. You know I live personally in oakland county and I wouldn’t want my city council members listening to someone from Germany on what laws and policy should be, and I think you know. I think every city really has to hone in on who their constituents are and answer has washed constituency we brought them to the Sabbath me they they let our Sabbath meeting I think everyone was there was from Washington county except for me and I was just doing note taking I was just kind of there as kind of kind of as background and at the end of the day, politics is about getting elected and you only do that with constituents support right meanwhile governance is about supporting your constituents so. Listening the people your governance effects scheduling sit Downs and all that’s important, and so I think it’s really important to press locally hyper locally. Those mayors and Council members and things to talk to people in their community. And when when there’s a controversial issue like sex work, you know with this stuff’s have a campaign that people like Ellis at it, you know sit down and talk to you know sure you, you want to talk to the anti trafficking people great also sit down and talk with this people effective talk with a sex workers and make sure you talk to people in your community about it and You know I think that’s a really important invaluable place to start is just pressuring our local leaders to listen to their Community Members who are actually affected by these things and pushing for these recognition of people as people with whole lives and jobs and hopes and dreams that you know we’re all trying to ache, for you know we’re all trying to reach for and you know, in addition to do criminalizing sex working I talked about all these quality of life, issues that we’re we’re trying to push against and these city laws that we would love to get off the books, because it’s it’s great that you know sad that won’t prosecute sex work. But it doesn’t help when you know when my ex partner was biking up and got you know, harassed by the police, for biking at night well trans you know it doesn’t help that you can still be arrested for loitering you know all these things are a huge issue so so trying to get those off the books and trying to get more. Justice in those ways and trying to press for aid and expansion for people who have been charged with these laws, I think, is really, really important. Because these things not only criminalize us that they criminalize our partners, they criminalize our family members and other loved ones at the end of the day, you know sex work it’s just a job and we just want the same Labor rates as any other job you know we don’t want our like.
MH: it’s not like they criminalize baristas or something like that.
AF: Right right.
MH: It is in other ways it’s kind of like they did that you know just some job they picked.
AF: Right and there’s um I don’t know if you’re familiar but there’s living with a rears legislation or living off the irs legislation which is designed specifically to target pimps and like pimp itself is like a whole nightmare word like I don’t even want to get into the it’s. I will run you out of time before I even get.
MH: Our yeah I think we’ve already run out of time actually.
AF: 90 more seconds.
MH: 90 seconds.
AF: But living off of a rears criminalizes third parties who get money or gifts or anything from sex workers, and that means that, like my partner who I give a Christmas present to because they know i’m a sex worker they now get targeted under the same legislation that targets temps right and, like my parents my brother like they’re all targeted of those things and we just want to. We don’t want our assistance criminalized for screening out would be violent clients we don’t want our friends criminalizing for providing us a safe place to work. So pressuring these local people to just like recognize us as humans and and have sit Downs with us in and get to know us and and really make before making the legislation that affects us really listened to us and here at our side of the story.
JL: Honestly that’s the kind of revolution i’m here for exactly.
MH: So you have. You have your assignment Santa Barbara.
JL: Listen to answer do some reading. And then let’s talk to our leaders about listening.
MH: And we’re going to drop all these links in the show notes links to the answer and we got links to the mutual aid fund and then i’m dropping the Wikipedia link to foster ancestor and then.
An article that always comes up with one of the first ones math book for sale.
AF: So you can find out more things about these things great and if I could just like plug.
JL: A couple things real quick yeah.
AF: um so yeah our websites answer to trade up.org or Twitter is at answer Detroit and you can find out more stuff about us there you know we’re involved in black men mama’s bailout to raise cash bail funds for for incarcerated black women. We have our mutual fund, which is a gofundme and that’s the on our website, we have a podcast about hosted by a sex worker and interviewing sex workers religious designed to humanize sex workers, that is a sex workers guide to the galaxy that’s probably linked on our website i’ll email you that that in your show notes. And we have a newsletter if you want to follow up on anything that we’re doing and and be in the loop about any action that would that we’re taking or that we need help on or if you just want to get connected, we have our we do have a newsletter there’s also also through our website, and if you just want to see me ship post on all that you’re at addy underscore finch.
JL: And, just to be clear folks who want to send a few dollars your way that they should do that through the gofundme link.
AF: that’s absolutely correct, and that is i’ll give you that directly but it’s also linked right through our website again answer to treat.org.
JL: Okay perfect alright Michelle any final questions before we transition to pod keeping.
MH: I think we’re I think we’re in pod keeping land.
JL: Keeping land, yes, oh man. Thank you for an amazing conversation yes learned so much. yeah, thank you for joining us really appreciate it.
AF: Again, I could have talked for like 18 more years and so.
JL: that’s why we’re supposed to show up and listen, so you don’t have to jam it all into one hour. Alright, so moving into an arbor af pod keeping this is usually the point where we talked about listener corrections, but we didn’t get any this week, so we were awesome last week and thank you to those of you who have supported us on our coffee, I am super stoked to announce that by the time this episode drops. Our website will be live, you can check us out at Ann arbor af.com you’ll find episodes and I know a bunch of you have been asking for transcripts. We got them because we’re awesome go check out our website and our worth eight f.com. And that’s it for this episode of Ann Arbor AF. We’re your cohosts Molly Kleinman, Michelle Hughes, and myself, Jess Letaw; and thanks as always to producer Jarod Malestein. For questions about this podcast or ideas about future episodes, you can email us at annarborafpod@gmail.com. Theme music “I dunno” by grapes. Get informed, then get involved. It’s your city!
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