Today, we talk about Harm Reduction with Lemont Gore from UNIFIED.
We talk about the philosophy of harm reduction, and the work that UNIFIED has been doing around drug use and HIV.
Transcript
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MH: Today we’re taking a deeper dive into harm reduction, what it is why we should care and how do we do it.
I guess today is Lamont Gore from unified, to help us get informed and get involved hello, Mr.
LG: How are you.
MH: doing good so.
Far harm reduction, what what is it let’s start with that, because a lot of people that haven’t heard of it.
LG: Okay, I tell you what.
This there’s several different definitions of harmony.
And this is the one that i’ve come up with that fits you know most well with me.
And that is that harm reduction is a perspective and a set of practical strategies to reduce the negative consequences of drug use, incorporating a spectrum of strategies from safer us to abstinence so we you know it’s not.
It is not a policy it is you know it’s just practical strategies.
When the pandemic hit.
You know the one of the first season and I blame me vouching for this.
He came on and said Oh, we don’t yeah we don’t think you’re gonna have to need to wear facemask.
He corrected that probably a couple of days later.
And the thing is facemask our harm reduction strategy.
it’s just just you know, harming the changes it’s not a cure, but if you use this you know you will be safer.
And that’s what harm reduction is and so it’s it’s just strategies that keep people safer.
we’re not sure where people you know, want to go some people, you know.
They they looking for abstinence because this is what tradition has told them that asking them is the answer, and if you if you using a substance, then you need to abstain from these mass substance in order to get better we don’t necessarily believe in that.
You know, we leave this middle ground there and we believe that you know what’s practical for one person might not be practical for another.
So it’s it’s more individualized and.
that’s that’s pretty much what we tried to do.
MH: yeah I think um I guess what popped into my mind just now is I think people are maybe more familiar with the idea when it comes to sex education like that there’s you know some.
Sometimes people talk about abstinence only sex education and just.
You know, oh if you don’t want to like get pregnant, if you don’t want to if you don’t want to get STDs don’t have sex that’s, the only thing we’re going to talk about, but then a more like harm reduction approach.
gives you condoms teaches you how to use condoms teaches you a more about sex that kind of thing, and whereas like you know.
right there you’re not like gonna stop people from doing it you’re going to reduce.
The harm from people doing it.
exam prepared.
LG: yeah you know.
We.
We don’t necessarily believe in those absolutes.
And so you know with that The thing is, is that.
When you have those on.
Those beliefs, that you know it’s either or then not everyone can fit into those two categories.
And you.
know they need, they need to have that space or they can make those decisions to help make those decisions about what they believe is best for them.
MK: So then, what are some examples of harm reduction, like within within that set of strategies, what are some of the common harm reduction approaches that that you see here that you use well.
Okay.
LG: Basically, if a person is.
let’s say a person is injecting whatever stuff they’re injecting but they don’t have access to to to clean equipment they don’t have access to new equipment it’s always the you know the optimum would be to be able to use new supplies every time you would inject.
If that’s not available, or they don’t have the funding, you know to.
purchase those.
Or if they don’t have a location where they can purchase those materials, then we want to be able to maintain you know, make sure that they are able to to acquire those.
so that they can use safely without sharing with anyone else dust reducing you know, the possibility of transmission of HIV or hepatitis C when I first started doing this, the HIV transmission rate for injection drug users.
In washtenaw county.
For with HIV was around 13 or 14%.
After about three years we had that number down to about 4% and now it’s almost non existent, so you know, we know that these these interventions work.
MH: yeah and I think when people hear about like stuff like distributing needles like they might say, oh you’re encouraging people to do tracks.
I heard somebody I was talking to somebody who had just heard about an organization that was distributing crack pipes and they’re like oh you’re encouraging people to do crack and.
They said, well, the reason we’re doing that is because people get blisters when they smoke crack out of a crack pipe and then, if they share their pipe with someone, then they can transmit diseases back and forth and.
LG: Correct.
MH: You know, and so yeah you have to.
So It just seems like it’s kind of a different mindset, you have to stop thinking of like oh we’re going to encourage people to do drugs it’s like well, people are going to do, drugs, with or without us we just want to make sure they do it safely kind of thing.
LG: yeah i’ll.
tell you.
i’ll tell you a little story quickly when I when I first hired.
In this is when the organization, we were.
At that time, known as heart was true as HIV, AIDS resource Center.
And I hired in to do outreach I had no idea about harm reduction program or anything like that.
And my.
My my boss at the time when we’re talking about my response to build she said well you know you’re going to be going out and you’re going to be distributing you know safer injection equipment.
And at that time I was probably a year and a half, maybe two years into my recovery, you know.
And so I had to go home and think about I said, you know it’s bad as I need a job, I still have.
To think about this.
And I went home and I thought about it for about five minutes and i’m like what am I thinking about you know.
I want people to be you know more safe than I was.
and the next day, I took the job and I took the position that i’ve been doing it ever since yeah.
MH: um well this might be a good time to start talking about unified itself like what How long have you been involved, how long has unified been happening like what you know that kind of thing, how did it start.
LG: well.
You know, start small and start out small.
And they had programs by us it’s mainly focus at that time on, you know African Americans, because you know and.
And people who were.
Homosexual you know involved in, you know.
relationships, not using you know safer sex guidelines, not having access to information, you know just information of what was risky and what was you know what was safe.
So you know, as you mentioned, you know we were going to bars, we were you know out everywhere, all the time we’re around the campus area.
We you know we tried to reach out to churches that was an adventure.
And you know, so we were we were trying to to to be a voice as as loud, as we could here in Washington county.
And when we started, you know.
They started the street outreach program a little bit before I started there and.
When you know it’s basically.
It was basically just people that you know we’re in recovery that were you know that new people that were trying to help other people that were still using.
MH: And when did when did you join up.
LG: As started at hark and see this is.
It was 19 now 2001.
Okay.
MH: What was the what was behind the name change.
LG: Well, we merged we merged with another organization, a few years ago.
We merged with a partnership or an age partnership Michigan out of Detroit and they asked when we came up with the name unified.
MH: On phone.
MK: So now you cover a broader geographic area.
LG: Right and yeah yeah a much broader area.
But the thing is, I mean you know.
As far as.
Our harm reduction program this.
earth there’s other areas that we’re trying to reach out to, but this is still our primary you know southeastern Michigan this you know wash now Congress that primary here.
huh.
MH: Okay.
um.
So what uh.
I guess like what can you tell me like what it is that you guys like do on a day to day basis.
LG: Well okay so.
I can tell you what I do.
I don’t want to try to step off into what everyone else.
Right right uh you know i’ll come in on Monday mornings and i’ll check supplies.
I make sure that our mobile unit, you know is stock and ready to go out.
Mondays is a day, where we have syringe access from our office so we’ll you know we’ll have someone here, covering people that might need you know equipment.
And then they would come in, and you know, make a list of what what supplies they need to make sure you try to make sure that they get it, if someone you know is.
Considering, you know, trying to access treatment will you know we as matter of fact, we just started a behavioral.
side to our harm reduction program so we’re not able to refer people to our therapists and and they and it’s more of a harm reduction approach to therapy.
Then we might find you know.
Other locations.
So anyway, you know we distribute from here.
Sometimes we’ll just have a conversation, you know people will come in, because we might not be you know we might see a person once or twice a month, so they they know if they come here they’re safe.
And if there’s something that you know they might feel you know uncomfortable speaking talking to someone else about.
there’s not going to be too much that they’re going to say here that is going to knock somebody off their feet.
MH: yeah um tell me about the I got I got it real interested in the therapy thing like what do you guys see you have.
Spent just.
LG: don’t don’t don’t get.
MH: OK OK.
LG: I gotta do something, this is something.
This is something that we’re just rolling out.
Okay, and I believe.
We have started with one or two individuals right now we’re looking to expand.
And we probably will because there’s a lot there’s there’s a huge need out.
MH: Right.
MK: Oh, I have a I have a question I in my hometown of Philadelphia, there was a recent move so i’ve been we’ve heard a lot about like needle exchanges, the.
kind of you’re talking about and Philadelphia, set up a safe injection site.
which sounds I know.
MK: filing so you know.
i’m curious if you could talk a little bit about the like those two things, and there was there was a ton of backlash about the safe injection site, and I think eventually it got shut down so i’m curious about.
LG: Both those things and then.
MK: Also, any challenges that you faced in terms of neighbor or Community responses to your work.
well.
LG: yeah.
Philadelphia.
You know the situation in Philadelphia is is really unfortunate.
They were ready to roll out, you know they’re safer injection site.
And at the last minute, they were toe you know they weren’t going to be allowed to do that.
And that’s that’s unfortunate again.
MH: Because bad place that.
that’s a safe injection site tell me a little bit more just for people who haven’t heard as.
LG: Well, facing just safer injection sites and.
I had this thing by using the word safe safer injection site.
Are.
Usually offices or you know clinics, where a person that uses injects drugs or using drugs they might snort whatever they can go there use there’ll be a medical professional there.
And if there’s any adverse you know experience the medical professional can intervene.
And they can stay there, you know.
Until they’re ready to leave and there is no, you know backlash and law enforcement.
And you know there, this is done it’s in Europe now you know it’s in Canada and in some locations and you know we felt we were ready to you know roll it out here.
I believe it will probably still happen, but until we’re still again it comes back to stigma and until you’re able to reduce the stigma, you know, as I said before, it’s hard to make you know advances.
In at least with any with any sort of speed.
yeah.
LG: And so, but again, as I was speaking before the thing about safe injection sites they’re not for every location and not for every every city.
I can, I question personally whether a city like Ann arbor.
You know, is a.
real practical site for a safe injection site.
Usually it’s going to be, you know the clinic would be an area where there’s a large number of people that are using.
So that those people don’t have to travel, you know, on a bus to get that they can walk to the clinic and they’re you know they have immediate access, if you have to travel, you know any length, you know distance to get there, then you suddenly you know defeating the purpose.
So.
i’m not sure, but you know, a city like Detroit.
that’s where I used, you know when I was using and yeah you know there were definitely those locations where they would have been very helpful.
MK: yeah.
MH: So i’m sorry I interrupted you earlier when you’re talking about.
The situation that happened in Philadelphia, and so like barriers to making a safer injection site to happen so go back to talking about those barriers and what kind of things.
LG: said, you know, the main barrier is just stigma and the the the individuals with the largest largest voices.
You know, are the ones that are being heard this.
Again, you know it’s very political and know very few politicians are gonna want to step out there and do the right thing that’s going to cost them politically.
And you know, there are certain certain groups who have traditionally traditionally seen this and they continue to see these these issues as moral issues, instead of.
You know, a health issue.
yeah so as long as you know, we’re making those decisions based on certain groups moral standings, then you know it’s going to be hard to to to.
Make that push.
so that you know it continually comes back down to that those those issues being what makes those decisions yeah.
MK: So, have you are unified and your work locally, I know there isn’t you don’t do say for injection sites, but I know even like needle exchange type programs have faced backlash i’m wondering if if there’s if you’ve experienced backlash.
locally or there’s been issues with with Community risk the larger Community response, the stigma that you’re talking about.
LG: Okay number one I have to say something we stop using the.
term needle exchange.
I stopped using it, years ago, because the.
You know that whole concept of needle exchange was just totally unrealistic what you were saying was if you bring me one use syringe I will give you one use syringe, even though I know that if you’re caught with that one syringe trying to brand to me, you know you face a charge.
So we started, you know my thing is is a we became a syringe access Program.
And if you know if individuals are able, if they have a home that and they can you know, save up those use syringes and bring them back to me, we will definitely you know disposable, but I want those individuals to be able to use a new syringe every time they inject so you know if a person.
can only bring me 100 syringes or 50 surrenders.
But they need 200 syringe then i’m going to make sure that person gets to any syringes.
MK: got it Thank you.
MH: yeah I was in another thing I wanted to ask to generally it’s about um you know.
Are there any like barriers like sure you can access, our services, but only if you are involved in, you know, a 12 step program or you know something like that are there any barriers, if you ask any questions.
LG: participate in our Program.
MH: yeah right right.
LG: Oh no, no, no, no, no, there are absolutely no barriers.
MH: I figured That was the answer.
LG: No, no, no, no, no.
MH: I also want to.
Know like why that’s the answer, because I think i’ll have a good answer to that.
LG: yeah No, this is this is totally accessible to anyone who needs our services.
So you know I don’t and and, as a matter of fact.
I don’t care what you know it doesn’t make it to where you live in in Washington county or not we don’t you know we don’t set those types of barriers.
i’ve had people.
in Detroit is still not our service area but i’ve had people you know draft from Detroit because it couldn’t find programs in Detroit.
i’ve had people drafting Detroit.
MH: You know, for.
LG: For naloxone as well as the ranges.
Because lack of access.
MH: As a drug that you can take if you’ve haven’t oh if you’ve had an overdose or that someone can administer to you if you’ve had an overdose.
LG: Yes, yes, if you had an opioid overdose.
MH: Right okay.
LG: So.
yeah we try to be accessible to anyone and everyone.
MH: yeah yeah it seems.
LG: interesting question you might you might have been thinking about this question I don’t know.
Some people have asked well.
what’s the age limit.
MH: Oh.
LG: Are you were you thinking about that.
MH: I hadn’t even occurred to me that asked.
me about it let’s hear about it.
LG: Well, the age limit, because we don’t ask for identification.
I can’t verify everyone’s age.
You know I would say that if a person appeared to be exceptionally young I would probably not you know.
serve them but.
I believe the youngest said i’ve had.
Better verified in my program so far, I was like 15.
yeah.
MH: yeah it kind of seems like you know if someone’s super young like I mean that doesn’t change the equation to me like if they okay well.
LG: Exactly yeah yeah it’s unfortunate you know, but if they’re using then we want them to you know they have as much knowledge as much knowledge as possible.
about what it is they’re using and how they can keep themselves safe and what there are other options are if they you know if they decide, maybe the you know I don’t want to use anymore, or I want to use less then we’ll try to come up with a strategy to help them accomplish that.
MH: yeah I think.
MK: Oh so um I really appreciate your correcting my language earlier and i’m curious if there are other things that people often get wrong about harm reduction, or about the services that you’re providing and where those needs are coming from.
LG: well.
I don’t know I mean.
The one thing that that is.
That is still sort of a out there is that.
We enable you know individuals.
And, and the bottom line is.
If you if you really you know, look at the numbers.
Over time, people if they’re if they’re involved with a harm reduction Program.
Their use will usually reduce after three to five years.
You know they’re more they’re more apt to try to access some sort of other program for help, just because they’ve been you know they have stayed plugged into a program they know cares about them.
A lot of individuals, a lot of individuals will age out of using usually around the age of 50 you know.
We we tend to over emphasize, you know the substance use.
If you look at the numbers, you know.
You might have 10% of the population that might have an issue with substances and i’m not just talking about opiates i’ll talk about other substances also.
But we you know will will place a lot of emphasis on that 10% and sometimes it’s sort of in ordinance amount of emphasis on that 10%.
and
You know, instead of really looking at it from a broader point of view, you know there’s a lot of girls who are just as I, you know said earlier, the moral issue you know and.
Those are the ones that it’s almost, it seems as though it’s almost impossible to get through and less the only time that that those attitudes changes if it somehow becomes personal to them.
um once you know it hits them personally.
Then attitudes tend to change.
MH: yeah I think um you mentioned earlier, like helping people to use less, and I think that’s something that people forget about like it’s either you are a user or you’re not a user and.
make people stop using and and you know I think you know a lot of the statistics that we might see our stories we might hear just from you know people who.
Use versus people who don’t use, and I think there’s people missed that whole spectrum there like that you know it’s better it’s better to reduce us then to not reduce us, but like.
right here if you’re only going to like.
You know if you’re if you’re directing programs that have really high like barrier to entry.
And you’re in insisting on perfection.
it’s not you know you might miss people.
LG: yeah.
MH: Good help if you’re helping them to use less yeah.
Right.
LG: You know, like I said i’ve been doing this around i’ve been doing this for a long time and.
i’ve had people come and go in our you know in our Program.
And every now and then you’re running to someone I haven’t seen for a few years and they’ll say yeah you know i’m doing fine I got my kids back you know i’m still in the methadone program they’ve been in the methadone program for maybe 10 or 15 years.
And their lives, have you know.
Where they had been chaotic are now you know.
You know, really manageable and there’s and.
And so they’re able to appreciate.
You know, different aspects of life that when you’re caught up in chaotic ease.
there’s that all you know, is using that’s it so you know it, it was funny because I definitely feel this way and I haven’t been watching the rerun.
Long or last night and her one of the actors psychiatry say something.
Is that you know people who want to they want to look for those solutions that are instantaneous not realizing that.
It has taken people years to get to the point where they are in their usage.
And there are reasons that they’ve gotten to those points.
MH: And so.
You know.
LG: That change is going to take as much time, if not more, if that’s truly what they’re seeking.
We.
i’m not sure you know what you how familiar, you are with aces.
MH: April.
LG: yeah.
Adverse childhood experiences.
MH: yeah okay.
LG: And you know, I was, I was at a conference and a person was speaking, it was one of those crazy times as much time as a person, trying to sleep when you’re trying to hear what they’re saying.
And she was telling her story of how aces had affected her and her usage, and so I started doing a lot of researching into it and you know, presenting on it and The thing is, I did a.
survey of our consumers and what their you know experience was as far as he was concerned.
And the average score for a person, that is, you know just need a sort of a normal life on a test of one from one to 10 questions, the average score would be like a one maybe a two.
And those are traumatic experiences that.
might have been doing during their.
Childhood that I have a score.
For our consumers for men was like 4.5.
And the females was 5.5 those exceptionally high scores.
So a lot of trauma happening to a lot of people, you know as they are younger.
And you can you know send them to a 12 step Program.
But those those issues those underlying issues are not being dealt with right.
And when I say that we really need to professionalize you know our approach.
The same way to you know police department, are seeking professionalized their approach we have to professionalize the approach to certain sheets and you know.
reduce the stigma take those other.
moralistic you know type decisions out and let’s just let’s deal with the science and what we know is working.
MK: So that I think probably brings us right to a question Michelle had wanted to ask about drug courts to on a.
Drug courts go tell us.
About.
MK: In terms of understanding what works and relying on the.
Reason and recognizing that the trauma foundations for a lot of these.
MH: conversations before we hit record so.
LG: yeah drug courts.
You know, understand what.
What the purpose was.
When you know they were first.
thought of its being effective, but the reality is.
What drug courts do they promote.
They promote a feeling of.
accomplishment.
But not really accomplishing anything to do with the situation if there was a problem with that problem was what you’re accomplishing is.
An amount of time where a person is supposedly not using and attending a certain number of meetings.
For you know 90 days or six months.
and
The thing is, even in 12 step programs in 12 step programs the suggested number of meetings that a person should attend and 90 days is 90 meetings.
But drug courts don’t don’t.
require that for not requiring you to become immersed in the program they just want you to attend the program and you know and get a paper signed saying that yeah I attended the program and I was probably you know.
Online doing some other stuff while people were talking.
That is that’s not treatment that is not treatment and.
You know I I failed to see the effectiveness of it, I also.
don’t understand how.
You know.
Judges and and magistrates, can I, you know are are really qualified to make treatment decisions of someone if they do have a substance issue right, you know.
Those those individuals are you not on the bench and so when you know, a judge says well you know we were assigning you to you know do 30 minutes 30 meetings in 90 days I I don’t know what that what that is based on you know I don’t you know.
MK: Right so right the idea behind drug courts, as I understand it was to be diverting people away from incarceration right so we’re.
we’re recognizing that this is a health issue and not a criminal issue, and therefore we should be sending people to treatment and not to prison but the treatment piece, it sounds like is is lacking.
LG: Well that’s you know and that’s one of the thing I hear people throw that term treatment out as though it’s a nirvana you know yeah and and the thing is people.
Individuals that are using buy into it and they you know, and they have this expectation once I get into treatment my life is going to turn around you know.
And that’s that’s not realistic, that is totally unrealistic for some people 12 step meetings are great they’re fine they can immerse themselves in.
For others, you know they can’t relate they might have issues you know dealing with groups like that you know, so the the intervention should be more individualistic what we need, you know, to have these options, you know for people that truly want to change and for those who.
You know well, I you know I don’t feel like i’m ready to change, I don’t want to use as much within this time an option for them Okay, you know it has to be more individual and we can say one size fits all right.
MH: I worry about um you know, a drug court that says, you have to attend a certain number of meetings, a certain number of days it’s like.
You know if a person is having a hard time reducing their use, because their life is hectic and chaotic now all of a sudden we’re like adding a bunch of new responsibilities.
You have to do a bunch of stuff or you’re going to go to jail.
And then it’s like.
it’s impractical yeah.
yeah.
Right gonna it’s not going to make their life easier to deal with, and then it’s not going to make the problems easier to deal with either.
LG: Exactly and, believe me.
You know, after doing after being involved in this for so many years, and you know, having been a user for so many years.
You know, it is not easy for a person to just turn their entire life around one of the things that they’ll you, you will hear when you first start.
You know recovery program let’s say in a and in this is the one term that stuck with me and I don’t think people realize the depth of it is that it’s a very simple program all you have to do is change everything in your life.
MH: haha.
You know, so you know and and honestly I almost did have to change everything in my life I was that desperate okay.
And you know, so I was able to do that other people might not be able to do that, you know, so you know we you have to find something that’s gonna be more practical for those individuals.
MH: Right yeah and it kind of seems to me like you know Okay, so I was having an imaginary conversation in my head, but you guys weren’t there.
Like.
You know, oh so if you don’t like drug courts what you want everyone to just go back to prison and I says no, I just want to decriminalize drugs.
Right there’s no reason that should be the stuff should be against the law it’s like the problem is the problem is health let’s treat this like a health problem.
LG: Exactly exactly.
yeah I believe I I believe most law enforcement understands now that you know they are not the solution.
And I think it’s been unfair of us to you know to.
charge them with that that responsibility you know so.
yeah we’re just going to lock people up and then what has happened, you know.
The discrimination that that happens as a result of that.
and
You know, individuals being incarcerated and then, when they’re released, are you know, unable to to find employment or or assistance.
You know, so this is this is just complicated.
You know recovery in general.
And, as you know, contributed to you know.
Those those esteem issues of a person, you know, is already feeling less than you take you take their driveway, and so it none of that has been you know, effective and, if you look at.
You know you talk about about decriminalization I go a little bit further than that, but if you look at you know what is happening in some other countries which I think that’s Another thing I think we need to do more of.
We we try to you know, come up with the solution and say, this is a US solution as other like that.
There are some astounding where there’s some outstanding work being done in other areas that.
You know that had the courage to say you know we’re going to try something different, because what we’ve been doing hasn’t been working and.
You know.
If you look at some of the programs that have been working.
The fears that you know always just gonna lead to more use or you know.
The kids are gonna start using as a result of you know, US legalizing the substance and the complete opposite has happened so you know we We really need to take a more in depth look at what is what is working at in other locations and see what can you know what can we apply here.
MK: You said you said you, you would even go a step beyond decriminalization.
LG: did a webinar on it and.
i’m i’m The anti prohibitionists you know, when I look at the record of prohibition in any successes and failures, the failures, you know just really outweigh any successes that I can find.
And you know.
If if I if I related to, and this is one of the things I said in my presentation, if you look at where we are, as for as far as marijuana is concerned and the the the the total misinformation and and untruth that were told about marijuana to make it any illegal substance.
It took nine years to turn that around you know.
And i’m just hoping that you know it doesn’t take us week, we know that.
You know this.
opioids the same way other sentences are the same way, a certain number of people are going to use a certain number of people are probably going to die as a result, but a lot of people are going to use, and you know and they’re going to be okay.
If you, you know, look at other regulations we have said, we we we don’t stop people from driving because you know they get a couple of times you know we’ll find them, you know make you know do some intervention, but you know we don’t outlaw cars, you know.
MH: I kind of giggling right now, because.
MK: Cars but.
LG: Okay.
But you know but that’s that’s my point, though, you know we there’s a there’s things that we can do to regulate and.
You know, and it would be okay yeah.
MH: yeah i’ve even heard of places like there was, I heard a long time ago someplace in.
another country somewhere.
I heard a story about a place that was the alcohol was the problem there, and so they actually had a place where you could go and they would give you alcohol.
Because they thought that, like people you know, trying to go out and get alcohol were causing problems like you know if they couldn’t afford it, if they were you know.
Great out out causing problems to get the alcohol, but if they if they could just have a place with someone would just hand them an amount of alcohol that was safe for them to handle.
They could just.
You know, be a safer way for them to use.
LG: Well, you know, the thing my thing about do decriminalization and and legalization is very simple.
With decriminalization.
Okay, so you’re saying that you know, a person could have a certain amount of certain certain certain substance and there will be no penalty.
But the problem with that is that that still doesn’t do anything as far as the purity of the substance.
Which is one of the major problems today as far as overdoses are concerned, because most of the seven cities have been adulterated and they’re being adulterated with all types of a chemical analogs.
So that that’s one issue The other issue is the cartel issue because.
Because you’re going to have those same individuals manufacturing these products that are unsafe, whereas if it is legalized and it’s regulated.
Then that government is inspecting everything that is is so so again that’s that’s that’s my feeling as far as legalization and and becoming innovation is wrong yeah.
MK: right because it’s a lot it’s harder to.
Those if you know what the dose of what you’re taking is right.
LG: yeah exactly.
MK: And it’s hard to you can’t know the dose when you don’t know the source.
LG: Well, a lot of what we’re finding and and, and this is also incredibly is that you know there’s a loose network of.
syringe access and certain you know support services and we share information with each other what’s happening on one side of country might not necessarily be having another side of the country, but we, you know we started seeing these chemical analogs.
And this drug supply and we’re seeing benzodiazepines we’re seeing stimulants.
And, as a matter of fact, we were seeing if you get one substance called housing.
And another substance we got a lot of a benzodiazepine analog.
And the thing is, if you because those are our depressants so you’re adding to the precedent to an oprah, which is already depressing.
And it becomes almost an explosive combination.
And so that you know enhances the possibilities of.
fatalities and we so you know, but what i’m finding is that there’s a lot of professionals that aren’t aware of the amount of.
You know, additives that are being you know us and you know we mentioned earlier, like what’s island or wait a minute, you know you should know what this is.
So you know there’s.
I don’t know.
yeah I don’t know what the answer is i’ve been doing this, a long time I just try to keep this thing as simple as I can, for me, I do what I can, as much as I can.
and try to share as much knowledge as I can yeah that’s what that’s where i’m at well some.
MK: something you said earlier in our conversation that really struck me was that the people three to five years coming to coming to unified for syringe access and for services is sort of the point at which they start maybe to reduce their use or to get into.
LG: to write.
MK: More intensive kinds of treatment and that’s a long game like.
This, I think there’s often this idea, like oh Okay, so you get referred to the treatment and you know you do 90 or 90 days and you’re.
Good and.
it’s a it’s a much longer time horizon here that you’re operating on.
LG: It is less you know if you if you look at.
I guess the best way I can describe it is a person who comes from you know they’ve had a chaotic childhood and it’s been traumatic as a matter of fact, you know if you talk about defining trauma.
You can you could define trauma, as you know, being in a.
high risk living in a high risk neighborhood where you hear sirens going all the time that’s traumatic you know is chromatic to.
To see a person shot or hear shots fired you know and some some people live in those in those areas where they’re hearing and seeing and experiencing traumatic experiences constantly so you know we have to, we have to be able to.
arrest the US but also address the the trap the trauma.
And until we’re able to do both.
you’re just dealing with the simple.
And the use is just a symptom.
MK: Right it’s.
LG: Not dealing with the real issue.
MH: One thing i’ve heard is.
housing is a great.
Is a great a harm reduction intervention.
LG: My friend.
rb patina.
MH: I indeed have she works at a avalon housing.
LG: yeah yeah that’s my that’s my friend.
yeah.
MH: and harm reduction is is key, and what they do.
LG: Right right no it’s true it’s it’s hard to recover if you’re you know it’s let me put it, this is much harder to recover if you don’t have you know, a settled.
occupants you know occupancy if you’re you know homeless if you’re.
In a shelter area, you know because of just the number of people in and where other people are that time you’re not able to focus on what you really want to focus on, so you know you need some sort of.
Some sort of settled occupancy you know, to enhance the possibility of being able to make some change wrong.
Okay, so say no, I do see the possibility.
That this is guaranteed.
Right that’s right.
MH: yeah and I think when it comes with when it comes to housing, I think there are some like federal programs that kind of go the opposite direction where they’ll.
Like I think if you’re in housing choice vouchers and stuff like that that make you take drug tests and if you fail the drug.
test is your housing, which is like the exact opposite of what you need.
LG: yeah, I can tell you been talking to me.
No, no, we did a we did a presentation together.
I think my answer.
And you know those those those copies came up.
And, and I do believe that means that did have an effect, though, because a lot of people that would there were, it was oh Okay, I get this now.
Okay, and this is where the educational.
piece has to come come in.
So.
there’s you know there’s so much involved in this and there’s no there’s no, you know just simple answer Okay, if we do this, this is going to take care of you know the situation everything’s gonna be great no it all has to it all has to come together housing issue you know health issues.
The access to treatment issues, the access to professional treatment issues you know expunged ministries, all this is coming together, which is that I really feel good about where the city ran are in Washington county is right.
You know i’m a big fan or a new prosecuting attorney.
And and try and do some work with him and and I think, as I look at issues that are happening other communities we’ve already taken steps and so like negate those issues so.
I like where we at i’m hoping that we don’t steer too many people away.
But.
I think we have a chance, I think we have a chance to to to.
really have an effect on on what happens in the rest of this area.
MH: hmm yeah.
MK: So this is this is always a question we ask or try to answer I guess at the end of every episode is for our listeners what what kinds of things can they do to educate themselves more about in this case about harm reduction or ways that they can.
can keep us moving in the right direction, like it’s great to hear that you think we’re doing so, it sounds like you know at least have it we’re on board with.
Doing are there other things that you would want to tell people that they should learn more about are things that they can be doing to support your work.
LG: You know.
I guess.
And you know, like I said, the main the main obstacle, as I see it, is the stigma, a lot of times for myself what I had to do was my own research.
And not accept you know, even when when I when I do a presentation.
I specifically tell people question everything that I say.
You know, research, it for yourself, I might be full of shit sometimes I am so you know really do your own research, and you know.
If you do that, I believe you’ll come to you know the consensus that yeah you know, maybe things we do need to change this approach, maybe what we’ve been doing in the past hasn’t worked and can be done much better.
And I think in that way you know and.
You know to be willing to confront those of other individuals, when you know you have a disagreement, you know let’s talk it out let’s have this conversation let’s don’t you know just let someone you know he’s spewing stuff that you know is garbage you know.
And it’s not and a lot of times it’s not easy, I know i’ve had to have these conversations.
But.
it’s the right thing to do, and sometimes you have to keep just that simple now.
MH: I have a quick story about stigma having those conversations and I think I told you this before we started recording but there was a you know liberty Plaza and Ann arbor is a place for a lot of.
Poor people hang out a lot of homeless people and.
there’s.
When the pandemic started the city put a porta potty out there.
And then, at one point I saw the porta potty was gone and I asked the mayor on Twitter I says.
It says what Why did we pick the porta potty away from that people need it, and he said Oh well, people were dropping a lot of needles just were screwing around the floor, and I was like well, then why didn’t you put a needle been there.
Like that’s.
That seems like you know the different philosophy when it comes to harm reduction.
Well, eventually, the housing human services Advisory Board and some other people did some lobbying and now the porta potty has been put back there with the needle been in it, but yeah I think that’s a kind of changing.
In your philosophy that everyone can make is to.
write about.
Instead of like, how do we get, how do we push the problem away or you know, whatever it’s, how do we get people what they need.
LG: yeah.
MH: But i’m okay also tell us how, where and how do people access your services.
LG: Well, all they have to do, they can call they can call.
You unify.
And, or they can go to our website our unified website and all our information is there about our site locations about our hours for distribution and about all of our prevention services.
MH: And i’d say we’re going to link that in the in the show description, but the website is m I unified org.
LG: that’s it all right, you might see a picture of me and.
i’ve told him to stop doing that and scaring people away but.
MK: getting close to time.
LG: yeah I do have to go because i’ve got to go pick up our mobile unit, which is in the repair shop, so I can go out later this this afternoon all right.
MH: Well, thanks so much for coming to us for coming with us and.
helping us get informed and get involved.
LG: I appreciate you having me, I appreciate what you’re what you’re doing all the work.
MK: Thanks, we appreciate, you too.
MH: Thanks.
LG: All right, bye bye.
MK: so as usual thanks for to all of you are supporting the podcast and who have supported us through our coffee, so if you want to send us a few dollars to cover hosting you can find us at ksc oh dash F I COM slash Ann arbor a F.
MH: And that’s it for this episode of Ann arbor as well, your co hosts molly climate and myself, Michelle Hughes, along with justly town, who couldn’t be here today.
For questions about this podcast or ideas for future episodes you can email us at Ann arbor af pod@gmail.com I theme music is I don’t know by grapes get informed and get involved it’s your city.
JL: Hi, Ann Arbor AFers. This is cohost Jess Letaw with one more thing.
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